Beware of rainbow toning

Lehigh earlier used, but did not define, the key word that separates the AT from the NT in that list of coins -progression. It IS important to understand what that means. The order in which colors are found is very important. Even if a particular color is found in an extremely narrow band on a particular coin, the colors have to be in a particular order, in order to reveal a slow natural process. That much I learned in that first seminar I attended in the 90's.

HOWEVER, this applies to rainbow toning, not monochrome tobacco spit.

 

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Just wanted to mention something.

I think that dipping a coin in a coin dip is about as "artificial" as you can get. And dipped (white silver) coins are all over the place.

In the 1960's when I cut my teeth as a coin collector, the rage was "Brilliant Uncirculated" or BU. Those coins would get a premium. This let to massive numbers of coins being dipped to bright white (for silver).

I think dipping copper is even more problematic, however David Q Bowers mentioned in his book on Lincoln Cents that there are no (or at least very few) original RED (RD) Matte Proof Lincoln cents (1909-1916) -- that almost all the ones that are slabbed RD today were dipped to get them that way. He said that "original" and "un-messed with" Matte Proof Lincolns tone a beautiful chocolate brown (or a mixed Red and Brown (RB) and many have brilliant colors from the sulfur tissue paper that the U.S. Mint wrapped those coins in when shipping out.

So in this case, you want chocolate brown copper with rainbow colors to show "originality".

Maybe in addition to the term "AT" for Artificial Toning ... we need to add a new term to our nomenclature "AD" for Artificial Dipping.

 

I know so little about copper dipping. Only what I read in books (David Q. Bowers book specifically) GDJMSP, I would love to hear an expose from you on this topic. It sounds like you know quite a bit. I am much more familiar with silver dip since those silver dip ad's were plastered all over coin magazines of the 1960's when I was just a wee lad.

 

Actually, I have always lived by a different mantra:
Some things are true even if nobody believes them, and some things are false even if everybody does. And both categories are growing by leaps and bounds daily. "A lie gets around the world twice before the truth gets its boots on." BTW, the Internet has not helped; it has made it worse.

 

I think the mantra of color progression might also be looked at a little more. Yes, color depends on the the thickness of the thin diffraction film of toning/corrosion of the coin metal. To progress in color, there has been a continuous increase in thickness from the most toned areas to the least over time. This is easy to assume if the coin has been in a 'toning book' where sulfur containing paper has held it in place by the edge, setting one side down in old wood/felt coin cabinet drawers, or even toned within hard plastic holders with leaky seals, the color change would be progressive as each layer increased in thickness from single direction.But if the toning contaminant was hitting the surface equally, the color would tend to be caused by less of a variation, and more grouped around a specific range, and if the flow direction was changed for random periods of time, or the coins position was changed there could be areas where the progression was not in specific order. Color progression is an excellent tool, probably higher than 80% effective, but that is where experience and knowledge can increase it, such as observing the edge of the coin (as an area that AT makers often can not control toning ) for progressive color coins, as the edge of album tones coin should be most advanced there, and as Lehigh and other do, look at thousands of examples.

 

Not only did he define but put a cool picture showing it

 

That would seemingly be where elevation chromatics would come into play.

 

Generally, I do not think elevation ( I am assuming you mean the elevation of the devices or lettering) would play a part in most cases as the molecular movement of a toning/corrosive substance in air or liquid would not see much of a difference in elevation on a single coin , If it was contact with a corrosive substance, such as sulfur paper, felt, tannin acid components from contact with wood, etc., then it would contact the higher portions foremost. Some have used sulfur powder in vaseline or a certain Mexican acne ointment ( also with sulfur) for toning, If rubbed on with a finger, it looks very phony, but if smeared on a piece of paper or cardboard, and the coin is pressed down gently and slightly rotated can produce elevation chromatics. The timing is variable and mostly unpredictable, so they have to be very lucky to get any close results. I am always more suspicious of elevation coloring than progressive. However these are very unsophisticated methods.

 

Let me ask you something, Kurt. Is there any toning that doesn't involve "artifice," i.e., human intervention? If you concede there isn't, what is it with the maintenance of these arbitrary distinctions, natural and artificial?

To the degree we're marginally conscious of the foregoing, why not just collect the toning we like, without regard to condemning the toning we don't like? If we like certain patterns of toning, collect them. Just because the majority maintains a distinction between natural and artificial doesn't mean the distinction exists and the latter should be condemned. There was a time when the majority maintained a distinction between humans and witches and the latter was condemned. Same thing going on, here.

 

Jim

I think you make some excellent points in these two posts. First is that we should expect toning progressions in certain storage methods such as albums or canvas bags but that some storage methods will not result in a progression and will instead yield a more monochromatic toning pattern. You also bring up that it is effective only a certain percentage of the time. That is extremely important IMO. All of the things that we use to determine the originality of toning are just indicators. A coin can have a proper toning progression and still be AT. Some coins show indicators of both AT and NT. In the end, we look at all the indicators and decide if the toning is market acceptable or not.

IMO, proper elevation chromatics is one of the strongest indicators of NT. While it would seem implausible that elevation would matter with respect to air transfer toning, bag toned Morgans show conclusively that sharp elevation changes such as those from fields to lettering, fields to devices, or even sharp changes within the devices have an effect on the progressive nature of the toning thickness. More specifically, the toning progression will lag in recessed areas of devices and will often be more advanced on the surface of the lettering. Let's examine the Sunnywood Morgan example shown earlier in this thread.




We can see from the color classification that the progression moves from 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock. Throughout most of the first two cycles, there is very little impact on the toning by the elevation. But once you get to the magenta color, the lag in the progression becomes very obvious. The higher relief turns to the blue-green (Q) color while the recessed devices lag behind with the magenta-blue (N) color. The best example of this can be seen in the "Y" in LIBERTY, but is also noticeable in the hair, bonnet, and stars. As we follow the word LIBERTY, we see this lag continue with the devices toned in the 3rd cycle magenta (T) and the lettering emerald green (R).

When evaluating toning on a coin, it is important to make sure that the indicators work with each other. The elevation chromatics should make sense in respect to the toning progression on the coin in the same way that toning correspondence from the obverse to reverse should make sense.

Now if we look at the AT coin Morgan that was posted in this thread, we see a definite lack of elevation chromatics.



The colors are not interrupted by elevation changes. In my experience, obvious AT coins almost always show this disregard for elevation change. And it is my theory that this feature is the most difficult for coin doctors to replicate. In order to speed up the toning process, one must increase the H2S concentration, force gas flow, or increase temperature or humidity. I believe that changing these factors causes a more rapid toning of the recessed areas than they would achieve without accelerating the toning. It is my personal theory and not factual, but what is clear is that something is keeping the coin doctors from consistently fooling the TPGs.

 

For some concerned about what can naturally happen, it may pay to check out some pedigreed hoards that were certified. Especially the Battlecreek collection.
Here was NGCs news release:
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=272

The part of that article that interested me most was when they say NGC evaluates a number of mint sealed bags of Morgans every year and have graded over 2 million Morgans in total (this was a 2005 article) but never had a group been found exhibiting such vibrant toning as the Battlecreek hoard which was stashed, sealed in mint bags in a Michigan basement for 100 years.

No salt air, no volcano sulfur. Why was this group of 10 bags so unique? It happened to all of them. Some of them exhibit toning that is not that great, while 1,359 others received a star and a pedigree label. Some of them are similar and quite stunning.
To me, these would seem to be a safe toning purchase. As well as the Binnion hoard. Or even the Lincoln hoard. When these were submitted I don't think the toned craze had taken off like it has today. They likely were not tampered with at time of submission.
You see more today because the internet has exploded as a marketing tool. It took some time even though people had internet in the 90s. You didn't have websites, forums, auctions sites and marketing like there is today. Whatever niche you're into, you can do a simple search and find articles, images and forums for that niche. No matter how bizzare. That didn't exist in the 70s, 80s or really even the 90s. 2000's and on yes. The internet is here and a lot of stuff is available for you to view and purchase that you never would've known existed 15 to 20 years ago.
When I go to shows, I honestly don't see many toned coins for sale. I see some on ebay I wouldn't touch with a 10 ft pole. Others, Ill buy on occasion. I'm not a full fledged toning collector but it doesn't scare me off from paying a premium for unique stuff. I bought a 63 proof set at a show that the Lincoln is half bronze, half blue. The rest were untoned. Idk what caused it but I love the set.

 

I agree with your interpretation, although to be honest, I did not consider toning in a "bag of coins" rather than as an individual coin, I guess because I think most AT jobs are done one by one due to the attention one would have to give the process. I profess a lack of knowledge as to what factors were in play in the cloth bag , in a vault, for various number of years, history of gases and exchange rate within the vault~ largely factors that I doubt there is real info available.

I have seen described 2 years ago an Arduino computer controlled device that could do that and more to accelerate test corrosion of metals, I wrote 2 paragraphs here describing it, but then decided to delete such, except to say the cost was $100,000+ for a microwave size unit. It will come though as temptation and premiums for toned coins continue to increase.

 

I also made mention of that article as an example of how unique quality toned Morgans can be. As in NGC was impressed by them and it wasn't something that comes in every day, or decade for that matter.

 

Sometimes I think these threads resemble an insane asylum. Then again all you need to start an asylum is an empty room and the right kind of people.

 

Speaking of copper, and toning right out of the chute - has anybody else assembled the full 20-coin set of 2009 Lincoln cents in a single Dansco page like I have? All were fresh from sets or rolls. P and D copper plated zinc, P and D bronze matte from mint set, S from proof set (also bronze). All times 4 designs. What fascinates me is the very different color of the toning between the zinc coins and the bronze ones. Similar to the post-war shell casing cents toning a different color.

 

Agree and disagree. In chemistry there is a scale of reactivity of elements and ions. On this scale, copper is higher in reactivity (oxidation) than silver, gold or platinum, but nickel is quite high and zinc is actually very reactive. A lot of this chemistry is changed when we consider alloys and it becomes about as much of an art as a science. I respect other's knowledge of what things actually do in relation of what things should do chemically.

 

Two comments, to accompany my agreement. 1) Keep in mind "nickels" have three times more copper as nickel, and 2) while no one is saying so in so many words, I get the feeling that many here assume that sulfur is the only element to worry about regarding silver. 'Taint so! Just because it's número uno in terms of the tenacity with which it bonds to silver, that does NOT mean silver can't be affected by other chemicals. Anyone who learned photography before digital cameras instinctively knows there are "gazillions" of ways to tone silver. And each one of them exhibits different "idiosyncrasies". But..... we blissfully prattle on as if sulfur has an exclusive here.

Dream on. Interpret everything you see on a silver coin as exclusively sulfur's work at your own "marketing acceptable" peril.

One can dip a copper wire into an acidic bath of sodium thiosulfate with dissolved silver ions in it (known in the photo field as "fixer" and used fixer is loaded with silver) and in a few SECONDS that copper wire will be LOADED with 98%+ pure silver. Doesn't sound so chemically inert, does it?

Also, regarding the impact of alloying, do you think a U.S. Government contractor can come up with a new Stainless Steel alloy that will have very nearly the full strikability of 75/25 cupronickel, so that Jeffs can be produced without taking a loss on each one or striking up like a 100 Lire? If not, hide and watch. Get used to the idea of calling a U.S. 5-cent coin a "steelie".