Beware of rainbow toning

Did pcgs burn down your house and slaughter your family? You seem to have quite a bit of anger towards them. What's up with that?

 

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When I see a coin like this...





All I can think of is this...




That coin may be naturally toned, but it's not even remotely natural looking.

I like my coins to look like coins. Some toning is to be expected on older coins, but that one looks like it's on loan from Barnum & Bailey.

I know many will disagree, but to me, that degree of toning is comical.

So to answer your question . . . I'd put a higher value on the second Morgan, because that's the one I'd rather own.

 

I have never cared for their company culture or attitude. Nor do I care for Mr. Hall's either. Call it a "bad match of personalities" if you want.

I find their omnipresent claims of superiority a little too "the lady doth protest too much". If I have to hear it all the time, I feel I'm being conned. It is undeniably a very cleverly set up self-fulfilling prophesy. Get enough people to buy into a myth, and they'll act in such a way to make it come true. Econ 101, baby. Throw in a little contrived scarcity, through restricting access, and VOILA, PCGS' business model!

 

Pricing is an entirely different animal. This thread is about whether pleasantly NT coins should be avoided because of an AT scare. I don't always agree with the prices that many coins bring either.

 

Oh, if that is the gist of the thread, we agree. I would no more AVOID a natural looking toned coin that I otherwise wanted than I would be additionally drawn to it. I am, or was, agnostic about toning until fairly recently. The more excess I see, and I see a lot lately, the more annoyed I become.

 

I'm pretty much in this place as well. "Natural looking toned coin" is the key phrase.

 

I have. With proper storage; however, you can limit further significant toning.

 

Ooh. Good choice of words - "limit" and "significant" both. Of course, the extents depend on natural environmental factors, like volcanoes, and, and, and, and ... Cows.

 

You mean the piece that was probably chemically treated/dipped? And many of the coins you are accustomed to looking at have been dipped in the past because it was very fashionable in the 1970s and 1980s to dip original coins to make them blast white. Many have partially retoned, but are mere shadows of their former selves. The "blast white is best" mentality no longer has the overwhelming majority that it once did. So I'm not sure how can you say or imply that it doesn't like a normal "coin."

 

I don't disagree that environment plays a role. If someone is stupid enough to collect monster toners and leave them around a source of sulfur and in a moist environment, well, to be honest, I don't feel sorry for them.

 

Some day you'll have to define this "monster" thing for me. I am aware of a "Monstah", but that's a wall in Boston. Same color all the time - green.

 

Drawing from my photographic background, I would advise NOT falling into the trap of assuming only sulfur is argento-reactive. It is the most stable elemental partner, but not the only one. Much of photography depends on silver's ability to compound with at least bromine, chlorine, and the nitrate radical, as well as sulfur. In terms of chemical bonds, sulfur is the grabbiest, nitrate breaks away from looking at it wrong, and the other two are solidly in between.

 

Monster - Very high end quality toned coin, often in the neon spectrum, with great luster that makes the color pop in hand. Usually these have significant color covering one or both sides.

The MS68 toned Morgan that Lehigh posted qualifies. As do at least two of the three below (and arguably all three):

https://collectivecoin.com/coinman23885/all-coins/ykXaze2BwLtXMqO4mZv6

https://collectivecoin.com/coinman23885/all-coins/dOZppSoA8UngfNNvUTfr

https://collectivecoin.com/coinman23885/all-coins/4JZPzxBcJW1lHaNkYvpv

 

That's fair enough. I recommend keeping the coins away from as many chemicals as possible, and despite many of the non-believers, I also like the Intercept Shield product line.

 

David Hall is tame compared to the one who is really running the ship at PCGS...Don Willis. Even many that really like PCGS and the company will personally admit that they find him arrogant, smug, and several other adjectives relating to an unpleasant demeanor.

 

Aw, man, now you've done it. Now I'm gonna hafta track him down at Rosemont and make snide comments near him. As if I don't already have enough to do....

 

Kurt, I'm afraid if I do the looking, you are going to tell me I'm looking in the wrong place. This is like an Easter egg hunt. There are plenty, and I mean plenty of rainbow toned Mercury and Roosevelt Dimes. So many in fact, that I find it hard to believe that mottled brown toned examples will drive a significant toning premium. If you say they exist, then you are gonna have to show them to me, I won't look for a needle in an haystack. Washington Quarters are a little more rare with colorful toning, but they are out there as well. And in my experience, Washingtons are one of the slowest series in existence. I can't sell a Washie to save my life. The series that are tough to find with any appreciable rainbow toning are Walkers, Peace Dollars, and SLQs. Since you said Quarters, I will search PCGS graded SLQs. I will list the first five mint state deeply toned examples I find in the HA archives and examine the premiums.

SLQ #1: 1929 25C MS64 Full Head PCGS $399.50 = No Premium



SLQ #2: 1923 25C MS67 PCGS. CAC $2,350 The premium over previous coins is $800-$900 but they were sold 2 years earlier.




SLQ #3: 1927 25C MS64 PCGS $235 Sold at discount price due to poor eye appeal.




SLQ #4: 1920 25C MS66 PCGS $552.25 NGC Wholesale is $710, PCGS Guide is $900



SLQ #5: 1923-S 25C MS65 PCGS $3,055 This is the lowest price achieved by a 1923-S PCGS MS65 SLQ on HA since 2005.



The first five toned SLQs in the HA archives don't seem to show any lunacy on the part of the buyers of these coins. In fact, if anything, the prices of these coins with mottled brown toning are on the low end of the scale. Now Kurt, I have been very patient. Typically when you make a statement, it is incumbent upon you to back up your own statement. The only other person who gets away with "they are out there, go find them" is Doug. Well, I looked, and I didn't find them. So if you want us to believe that people are paying premiums for coins with mottled brown toning, you are gonna have to show them to us!

 

If I have to choose between the two, then yes, the dipped coin is the lesser of two evils. At least it looks a lot like it did when it was first minted, so that's something. The other coin is simply freakish and bears no resemblance to coinage in a normal state.

But I guess you want to be argumentative, because you chose to ignore the rest of my post. You know, the part where I acknowledged that some toning is normal on older coins, and I'm OK with that.

I wasn't even commenting on the NT vs AT debate. Just saying that I find even natural toning, taken to extremes and obviously the byproduct of highly unusual conditions, very unnatural looking and very unappealing...to the extent that not only would I not pay a premium for it, I would in fact find the untoned coin more desirable and valuable, dipped or not.

 

Coincidentally, green is the "monster" color that all toning enthusiasts seek!

 

I didn't ignore the rest of your post. Many coins do not tone like this, but some of them do. I therefore think it is errant to say that it "bears no resemblance to coinage in a normal state." And my other comments were aimed towards many of the toned coins that you see on the market with secondary toning (i.e. toning after an old dip). It wouldn't surprise me that what a good number of collectors call "normal" is in fact, a coin that has been toyed with in the past.

Finally, to be clear, I wasn't attacking your comments that you don't like them or think the pieces are worth a premium. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and collecting should be about what each collector likes personally. The many distractions/side conversations are deleting the focus on this thread which I was under the understanding was about avoiding rainbow toned coins because of concerns of AT.