Beware of rainbow toning

Kurt, nobody is paying a premium for brown splotches. The fact is that most toned coins (both AT & NT) carry absolutely no premium at all. Coins with brown splotches (mottled) toning can usually be purchased at a discount. Whether you agree with it or not, eye appeal is a factor in grading in our current system (market grading). The only coins that drive huge premiums are those that have exceptional eye appeal. And despite the baseless claims made by some of the people in this thread, they are not easy to reproduce and they are indeed, RARE!

Do you really think that these two coins should be valued the same?




It seems that all of you guys who disagree with the applied standards with relation to toning also have a problem with the TPG standards (market grading) in general. And almost all of you wish that the ANA standards ruled the day. But guess what, you guys will still be unhappy even if you had your way. Coin grading is subjective by nature no matter which standards you use, and the results will always include a certain level of inconsistency.

Furthermore, your shot at hall is misguided. The TPGs have been grading toned coins long before they drove ridiculous premiums like they do now (eg the rattler Morgan shown in this thread). The premiums related to toned coins is a natural result of supply and demand. The advances of digital photography and the expansion of the internet brought increased the exposure of rainbow toned coins dramatically. No longer relegated to the back rooms of the coin shop, now they were on full display for the world to see. Huge numbers of collectors saw them and said "I want that." The supply was unchanged while the demand boomed, thus toning premiums were born. The only thing the TPGs control is to decide which coins are market acceptable and which are not. But I don't see any difference between that subjective decision and the decision as to what grade is on the label.

 

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Nope, not at all. But here's where we differ I'm guessing. I don't feel that the toned one is the slam dunk preferable one. Why? Because there is a better than even chance that the toning is STILL active, and by the time my kid is 70, in 2065, that toned sucker will be blacker than Lucifer's soul. And that matters to me more than any short term gain. Again, I admit I am probably in the skinny end of the bell curve. My time drawing breath is not all that long, by comparison. What I collect is ALL about trying to maximize value for the next, or even the next one after, generation. Hence what "the market" says today is about as useless as anything gets for me. I'm trying to figure "the market" 50+ years down the road.

By the way, I don't need no stinking volcanoes to encourage my silver to tone. I have dairy farms all around me. No shortage of methane or hydrogen sulfide whatsoever.

And Lehigh? If you don't think brown splotchy stuff is getting upgraded and sold for gaudy numbers, you and I are obviously not looking at the same auction catalogs and prices realized lists. Yes, it wasn't always that way, but it is lately. It's getting stupid.

 

The TPGs are "marketing grading." Or, at least, one of them very definitely is. And marketing is irrational. To wit, when was the last time you saw a rational ad? There you go. You nailed it. That's what you're dealing with. Good luck.

 

He he he. I once WROTE rational ad copy. It was rejected. "Marketing grading." That, right there, now THAT'S gold, not that yellow stuff.

 

And the weight of the metaphorical "hammer" their opinion wields is way out of proportion to its certitude, ESPECIALLY in light of their owners' lack of shyness about spouting off in other areas of which they know nothing.

 

I don't know where you got that information from, but it is wrong. Toning is not like a virus, it doesn't spread on its own. The rainbow toning on that Morgan Dollar was created by spending decades in a canvas bag in a bank vault. The obverse of the Morgan was in contact with the bag, and over a long period of time, the sulfur in the bag changed the concentration of H2S in contact with the coin. Once the coin is removed from the toning source (canvas bag), placed in a PCGS holder, and stored properly in temperature controlled atmosphere with normal levels of H2S, there will be no discernible change in the toning for many decades to come.

I'm not sure why you are worried about the market 50 years from now, the chances that you heirs will keep your coins as opposed to selling them is pretty slim, unless you have already discussed it with them.

As for the brown mottled toning driving premiums, perhaps you could link me some examples. I have a hard enough time selling beautifully toned coins for premiums. And I certainly haven't seen coins getting higher grades based on negative eye appeal.

 

Paragraph 1 - I simply do not believe that. I have seen too many of my own coins with toning continue to change, and I do have them stored as you said. Most of them were my own TPG submissions, and the oldest slabbing is only about 20-ish years ago. They continue to change, in old small ANACS most quickly of all, but also in NGC and "Royal We" slabs too.

Paragraph 2 - We have discussed it. He's even more into coins than I am. I buy NOTHING unless he likes it. I advise, he consents.

Paragraph 3 - I'll do some searching, but every S-B and HA catalog I have looked at since at least 1/1/14 is replete with numerous examples, for some odd reason it seems many are dimes.

 

Really? That's it....ROFL....your the entertainment and you are earning your keep. Keep it coming troll.

 

Careful now Jason, you don't want to pee yourself. Deeeeeep breaths. Caaaaaalm.

 

If it was as simple as you say then the market would have collapsed long ago. Period.

 

Mm. Maybe. Unless the campaign to win more converts would be keeping pace with the increased supply. I have no idea whether that's actually happening, but I'm speaking theoretically. I will note that I have recently had the opportunity to dine and commune with our gracious host club for ANA 2015 (and 2011, and 2013, and 2014, and 2019, etc.), [I am now a Chicago CC member] and the conversation around the table revealed more toning skeptics than I had suspected there would be. It's an august group of collectors, even in March. Yuk, yuk.

 

Strange, I have never seen any of my toned coins change in appearance and I have owned many for over a decade. I have the science on my side Kurt. If you remove the coin from the toning source, it can't continue to tone unless stored improperly. Do you have any examples to show us? I mean when you can, factoring in your health.

 

I agree with this. In general, attractive toning will increase the liquidity of the coin rather than the value, unless it is a monster. Of all the attractively toned coins I've purchased, I have only paid a premium for the toning once, and it was on a Morgan. That is an exception though since there is specifically a market for attractively toned Morgans and generally not for other series.

 

Umm, sure, but there are no 20 year old pics to compare them to. Time machine?

 

This just reminded me of the early 50's (I was there) when everybody had a B&W TV but color sets were just beginning to come out. Those who couldn't afford the $700 color sets could buy a multi-colored sheet of plastic to tape to the front of the B&W CRT to pretend they had a color set.

 

I agree bag toned Morgans are a category apart. I have far less criticism for Morgans in this toning debate. My chief gripes are other series, and the apparent ease with which the "Royal We" TPG firm in particular pours forth 68's to them, as seen in large show auction catalogs in recent years, based on little more than a schmutz that resembles dried-on tobacco juice. (Colorful enough prose?)

And no, don't ask me to link to them. They're out there. YOU DO THE LOOKING.

 

Too colorful, I don't really know which TPG or series of coin you are talking about.

 

I hate artificial toning of any kind. It looks too good to be true. lol

 

I refer you to (P)inheads (C)onsistently (G)rade (S)elf-servingly and on mostly, but not exclusively, 20th century dimes and quarters.