Bavarian 20 Mark Gold - Over-graded?

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by I.L. McDougal, Sep 14, 2015.

  1. I.L. McDougal

    I.L. McDougal Active Member

    NGC gave this XF 45 according the owner of the set registry.. I can see nothing but VG Details..... do I need an eye exam?
     

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  3. afantiques

    afantiques Well-Known Member

    From the pictures it looks about right. In hand it may be different.
     
  4. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    I think 45 is pushing it. Maybe 40. But, what are those lines on the bust? It's way too late of a year for adjustment marks, especially from a high standard issue such as this.
     
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    To my eye that is a VF details coin, scratched and harshly cleaned.

    Here's what a Proof example of the same coin looks like I.L.

    https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=1179&lot=30012

    I posting that so you can see the amount of detail that should be present on the coin to better judge a grade. Because even though that is a problem coin, it is a long ways from being VG.
     
    I.L. McDougal and derkerlegand like this.
  6. I.L. McDougal

    I.L. McDougal Active Member

    At closer inspection I can see that the lighting might be contributing to my downgrading, rather than wear on the crest and crown of the reverse. I am working a set of the 10 marks of these issues and these are the wear points I tend to focus on.

    At first look it really looked worn. Difficult without coin in hand. I think the consensus though is that this certainly isn't XF without details.. I was taken a bit aback at first with the chemical cleaning of the obverse, which is what caught my attention!
     
  7. afantiques

    afantiques Well-Known Member

    Why would anyone clean gold? Very low carat can get discoloured, but not the high carat used for coins. And especially, why a chemical clean?

    Crud might stick to gold, but I can't think of anything that some hot water would not shift.
     
  8. I.L. McDougal

    I.L. McDougal Active Member

    I happen to have an XF Details example in my personal collection (small scratch on neck that went overlooked), however these are the 10 Mark dyes, but I thought it would serve as an interesting comparison for the sake of this discussion:

    The detail on the crown and crest are pushing AU but i lost the grade because of the hair-loss on the obverse. I will be replacing this example in my collection, but I use it as a grade determination when I compare prospective buys.
     

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  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Same reason they "clean" any coin - because they think it'll look better, grade higher, or sell for more. In other words, improve it in some way.

    A great many gold coins are harshly cleaned, and it is sad that they are because it can be a good deal harder to recognize a harshly cleaned gold coin than it is to do so with a silver or copper coin. Thus many collectors get fooled and end up buying problem coins at full retail price. And the fact that the TPGs have become so forgiving when it comes to harsh cleaning, as they apparently did to the coin in the original post, even more collectors get fooled into buying a problem coin at full retail.

    That is specifically one of the things that the TPGs are supposed to protect collectors from. Sadly, they do not anymore.
     
  10. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    45 might be a little high, but I am comfortable with this coin at 40. Look at the amount of luster left - I would expect to see that on an EF coin, but not VF.

    I also don't see evidence of cleaning. Remember, gold is a very soft metal and will pick up a lot of marks in circulation. The photography and lighting technique in these pictures are is very poor, and is really making the coin look ugly. I'm guessing in hand, the coin looks perfectly acceptable.

    As always, I'm probably going to agree more with NGC's in-hand evaluation than armchair-numismatists grading from terrible pictures.
     
    afantiques likes this.
  11. Hotpocket

    Hotpocket Supreme Overlord

    I agree with GDJMSP, the OP's coin appears to have been harshly cleaned, especially the obverse.
     
  12. Yarb0

    Yarb0 Member

    The photos are really too poor to judge the exact grade of this coin. Also looks wiped.
     
  13. brg5658

    brg5658 Well-Known Member

    Provide decent pictures, then I'll offer an informed opinion. All you're getting now are opinions of really crappy pictures, not opinions of the coin.
     
  14. I.L. McDougal

    I.L. McDougal Active Member

    Yes, this is unfortunate, but I only have the pictures that the seller made available.. regardless I passed on the coin!

    Thank you all for the input!
     
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