Featured Bad Coin Show Etiquette

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Hobo, Jul 27, 2011.

  1. Hobo

    Hobo Squirrel Hater

    I attended our local annual coin show yesterday and today. All in all I enjoyed the show except for an unpleasant experience I had today.

    I was looking for something in particular and a buddy sent me to a dealer's table. It turned out the item was not to my liking. I am always on the lookout for nice counterfeits and I asked the dealer if he had any counterfeits. He said that he had two - a counterfeit $2 1/2 gold piece (not an Indian) and a very nice altered coin. (I don't want to go into any more detail about the coins because I don't want to even hint as to who the dealer is.) So I looked at the $2 1/2 and it is OK but not great. (By that I mean it would probably fool a lot of people but it was not good enough to fool someone that knows what to look for.) I asked his price and he said, "I bought this coin as a genuine coin. Another dealer told me it was fake. I paid $250 for it and I have to get what I paid for it." Really? OK. Melt on the thing is $180 and I am willing to pay over melt for it but not a lot. I jokingly said, "You paid $250 for the coin thinking it was genuine and you want $250 for it. I shouldn't have to pay for your mistake should I?" He persisted that he could not take less than what he paid. I asked him if he had paid $400 for it would he ask $400 for it. I put the coin down and asked to see the altered coin.

    The altered coin is one that was discussed here recently except this one was nicely done. I am no expert but I think it is a contemporary alteration (meaning I think the alteration was made about 150 years ago, not recently). The host coin was a nice XF and had toned to a nice chocolate. It is one of the nicer ones that I have seen. But the coin is the wrong type for the date it was altered to. Again, it was a very nice example and I was interested in it. I asked his price and he said, "$230." Gulp!! I told him I would have to think about it. We chatted a bit and it turns out he was an instructor at ANA Summer Seminar last week. I have taken the course he taught but I had different instructors. He said something less than flattering about the other instructors and how ANA got rid of them and asked him to teach the course. I didn't think that was very professional but I let it go. I told him that I have been thinking about taking that course again.

    I phoned a dealer who knows counterfeits very well and he said the altered coin should sell for $50 to $100 tops. If it was the correct type (meaning if the host coin was closer in date to the altered date) it would be worth more but being the wrong type limits its value. A different dealer told me another one similar to this one sold at auction recently and brought $250+ but the buyer needed it for his collection of these alterations and paid strong money for his. That does not mean all of them are worth what that guy paid.

    So I went back to the dealer's table, sat down and asked to see the coins again. He laid them out in front of me. I proceeded to tell him I thought the $2 1/2 was not bad but it wasn't a great counterfeit (even though it was good enough to fool him) and melt is $180 . . .

    Then a guy walked up behind me and said to the dealer, "Hey, Joe (not his name). Do you have any counterfeit type coins?" The dealer turned his attention to this guy and said, "Yeah! I have this great XXXXX. You wanna see it?" And he picked up the altered coin and started to hand it to the guy. HELLO!! I thought you were dealing with me. The dealer looked at me and said, "You mind if I show this coin to him?" I sat back in the chair and said, "I thought we were discussing the coin but do whatever you want." He put the coin down and told the guy he would get with him in a minute. (But the guy kept hanging around.) GEEESH!!

    So the dealer turned his attention back to me (at least partially) and I explained that melt on the $2 1/2 is $180 and it is not an especially good counterfeit but I would be interested at $225 (which I think is more than it is worth but I liked it). He said he wouldn't take less than $250 so I put the coin down and picked up the altered coin (with the other guy still lingering around) and told him that I would pay $100. $325 for the pair. He thought about it and came back with $390. I thanked him and told him my offer of $325 stands and I would let him think about it and return later.

    So a couple of hours later I returned to his table with money in hand. ($335. I decided I could go another $10 higher but that was my limit.) I said, "Let's talk about those coins." He said, "What coins was that?" Come on! So I told him. He said, "I sold the altered coin for substantially more than you offered." OK. Good for you. So I counted out $225 and said, "I'm willing to give you $225 for the $2 1/2." He thought about it and said he could go $235. I again offered $225 and he declined. I thanked him and before I left I said, "Next time I see you I may be your student."

    I could not believe what he said next - - - "You wouldn't like the class."

    He is probably right. We were unable to agree on a price for his coins. I am not angry. But apparently he wasn't happy. I thought that was very unprofessional of him and I doubt I will ever visit his table again.

    So where do I think there was bad coin show etiquette?
    1) The guy walking up and interrupting us while we were discussing coins.
    2) The dealer turning his attention to the rude guy that interrupted us.
    3) The dealer offering to show a coin that I am interest in to the rude guy.
    4) The dealer becoming persnickety when we got to within $10 but could not agree on a price.
    5) Maybe a few more but that is enough.
     
    loki6793 likes this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor

    Hobo, it appears hat a previous thread/post of yours has been promoted to an "Article" that will be revealed tomorrow morning. Check one of the other "Articles" in the vBCms Comments subforum to see what is done.

    Jim
     
  4. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Nice article Hobo. To me, the greatest offenses were, in order of severity:1. Trying to take the coins you were actively discussing and show to someone else2. The comment at the end about the class3. The dealer talking to someone else while you were in discussionsI rank #3 lower since this happens a lot. Another dealer comes over, is busy, so the dealer you are dealing with answers him out of professional courtesy. If it would have been another collector I would have ranked it a higher offense.Just my opinion.Chris
     
  5. camlov2

    camlov2 Member

    I think that showing the coin you are looking at to another customer is the worst. I do have to wonder if he knew the other customer and that his friend was trying to help him make a sale by showing interest in the same coin that you were.I don't have a problem with the dealer working with two people at once, in most cases they will be looking at different coins and there will not be any overlap. I have also seen one person sit at a single table for over an hour, if they were only dealing with one person the seller wouldn't have much opportunity for sales.
     
  6. protovdo

    protovdo Resident Whippersnapper

    My question is that of ethics. Why are you trying to hard to purchase counterfeits?
     
    adam5000 and Brett_in_Sacto like this.
  7. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    I think Hobo means that he didn't start THIS thread. Yet it shows his ID in the OP.
     
  8. Hobo

    Hobo Squirrel Hater

    I collect counterfeits. I find them to be very interesting and I use them for educational purposes - never to deceive someone.
     
  9. protovdo

    protovdo Resident Whippersnapper

    I understand your collection, I have read about your upcoming show. Seems very interesting. However, in the case of the OP, it seems he is attempting to purchase counterfeits in an attempt to capitalize on an ignorant collect. Which is something I strongly disagree with.
     
  10. Hobo

    Hobo Squirrel Hater

    I am the Original Poster. So you think I was attempting to purchase the counterfeit coins for some nefarious reason?
     
  11. protovdo

    protovdo Resident Whippersnapper

    All due respect, I did.
     
  12. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor

    I think we are approaching this feature from backstage rather than through the orchestra seats. Click on "Home" in the menu bar to see how this feature is intended.

    Congratulations on all who have articles!

    Jim
     
  13. vnickels

    vnickels Matt Draiss Numismatics & Galleries

    The mere fact that he showed the coin to the rude go was in poor taste, and also it is better to loose $25 than risk not selling it and only possibly getting $180 melt for it, resulting in a $70 loss! I know I would choose Option one, the $10 loss, over the $70 loss, unless I could return the counterfeit coin!
     
  14. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    When you have been here a little longer, and gained a little experiance too, you may want to send Hobo your appologies. He's a much respected and valued member of these forums who readily shares his knowledge and expertise. For you to even suggest that he would do something that nefarius is insulting to him and all members here who know and respect him.
     
  15. Hobo

    Hobo Squirrel Hater

    Thanks. I appreciate your kind words. Like you say, those that know me understand why I buy counterfeit coins (and currency). Those that do not know me may think I am up to no good but they don't know me.
     
  16. NorthKorea

    NorthKorea Dealer Member is a made up title...

    I disagree. The post made it fairly evident that there are people who specifically collect counterfeits. The fact that the alteration on the second coin was somewhat consistent to the time does make it collectible in terms of historic significance.

    I, personally, collect stock certificates of companies that were associated with fraud. This includes several oil and metals companies from post-WWI that had names very similar to strong companies. Also, some regional Trust Certificates of the time that were the predecessors of security based ponzi schemes.

    Usually when I purchase these, I end up in a situation where I have to prove to the seller that the certificate is not what they think, as many times they presume to have a certificate that is an early (pre-split/merger) version of a modern company. In the end, either they believe me or not. If they do, I usually pay a slight premium to what would be considered "normal" for "worthless" certificates, because that's what I collect.

    I can see collecting alterations and counterfeits (from the period), as an alternative to mainstream collectibles. It makes for a new challenge and sort of "frontier" element. I really saw no reason to think Hobo was being nefarious, at all. In fact, the post seemed quite educational, and efforts were taken to not reveal the name of the instructor/dealer.

    All of that said, I find it somewhat humorous that the dealer would insist on getting back what he paid for a fake. His insurance should cover that. He would just need to file a claim with the police or FBI and "out" the person he bought it from.
     
  17. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    Bruce, I've never seen anyone question your honesty or integrety as a collector. It angers me that a new person would pass such judgement upon you.
     
  18. protovdo

    protovdo Resident Whippersnapper


    This is where the tenured vets gang up on the seemingly ignorant newcomer, right?

    My post count does not reflect my intelligence. Yes, I am new to the boards. I read the post-blog for what it was, and I derived with something different than that was intended. Was I wrong in my assumptions? Yes. Do I owe apologies? No. He addressed my concerns and I have been corrected. Keep calm and carry on people.
     
  19. andyluw12

    andyluw12 New Member

    It seems to me that YOU should be teaching the class Hobo! The dealer/"instructor" was able to be fooled by a counterfeit-apparently a decent forgery-that you not only caught but also recognized the other coin wasn't up to snuff either. If the dealer has a few "ethical issues" regarding his inability to accept financial responsibility for his "oops" as well as bad-mouthing colleagues and some bad etiquette dealing with potential customers then I feel bad for anyone who takes his class or purchases coins from him. WE know you are on the up-and up (maybe protovdo misunderstood and was referring to the dealer in question?) but I would be very wary of ANY dealings with him IMHO... Its probably a good thing you saved yourself the cash because it sounds like you were about to overpay anyway.
     
  20. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter


    .
     
  21. protovdo

    protovdo Resident Whippersnapper

    .
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page