Augustus or Tiberius? Pythodoris? Rhoemetalkes I or II?

Which Roman emperor is depicted on the obverse of this coin? Is it Augustus (as per BMC and Forrer) or is it Tiberius (as per Sear)?

Which Thracian king Rhoemetalkes is depicted on the reverse of this coin? Is it Rhoemetalkes I (as per BMC and Forrer) or is it Rhoemetalkes II (as per Sear)?

And whose wife is Pythodoris? Rhoemetalkes I (as per Forrer) or Rhoemetalkes II (as Sear implies)?

Anyway, post your Rhoemetalkes, Augustus provincials, or anything you feel is relevant!


Kings of Thrace under Roman rule
AE 24 mm, 6.88 g
Obv: ΑΥΤΟΚΡΑΤΟ[ΡΟΣ ΚΑΙΣΑΡΟΣ ΣΕΒΑΣ]ΤΟΥ, bare head of Augustus or Tiberius, right
Rev: ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩ[Σ ΡΟΙΜΗΤΑΛΚΟΥ], jugate bust of Rhoemetalkes I or II, diademed, and queen (Pythodorus?), right

Here's the BMC listing.



The BMC takes the circular obverse legend as starting at about the 5:00 position and reading counterclockwise as Κ[ΑΙΣΑΡΟΣ] ΣΕΒΑΣΤΟΥ ΑΥΤΟΚΡΑΤΟΡΟΣ and thus is BMC 3, which is attributed to Augustus on the obverse and Rhoemetalkes I (and unnamed Queen) on the reverse.

Forrer--obviously using the BMC listing down to the uncertain Κ . . . . ΣΕΒΑΣΤΟΥ ΑΥΤΟΚΡΑΤΟΡΟΣ obverse legend and citing BMC p. 209, 3 directly--states that the queen depicted is Pythodoris, the wife of Rhoemetalkes I, and assigns my coin as #207:


Wikipedia confirms that Pythodoris was the wife of Rhoemetalkes I.

You would think, then that the attribution would clearly be to Augustus, Rhoemetalkes I, and Pythodoris, right?

But Sear's Greek Imperial Coins attributes all coins with the ΑΥΤΟΚΡΑΤΟΡΟΣ ΚΑΙΣΑΡΟΣ ΣΕΒΑΣΤΟΥ obverse legend to Augustus and Rhoemetalkes II, who Wikipedia tells me was the GRANDSON of Rhoemetalkes I:



My coin is therefore SGI-5405--which Sear claims is the same as BMC 3.209,3 (and it is) but the BMC attributes #3 to Augustus and Rhoemetalkes I, as we've seen above. So, Sear apparently believes the BMC is wrong in its attribution.

Sear reports the queen depicted with Rhoemetalkes II is Queen Pythodoris, who would have been Rhoemetalkes' grandmother. Either that, or there is a second Pythodoris who was the wife of Rhoemetalkes II, or Sear believes that the Pythodorus thought by Forrer to be the wife of Rhoemetalkes I was actually the wife of Rhoemetalkes II.

Well, there is another Pythodoris--a queen of Pontus by the name of Pythodorida who was known as Pythodoris I--but in this Wikipedia article about her, she apparently has no direct connection to either Rhoemetalkes.

So who are these people? Augustus or Tiberius? Rhoemetalkes I or his grandson, Rhoemetalkes II? Pythodoris, the wife of Rhoemetalkes I or some other Pythodoris?

Do any of you know which reference is correct??

 

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Portrait wise, yours looks like Tiberius. But I dunno.

Mine was $14 total, only reason I got it.

It is different then yours.

Here is mine:


KINGS of THRACE, Sapaian. Rhoemetalces I, with Pythodoris, Augustus, and Livia (Late 1st century BC-AD)
Æ 27
O: Heads of Augustus, laureate, and Livia, conjoined right; to right, capricorn right, holding globe.
R: Diademed head of Rhoemetalces and draped bust of Pythodoris, conjoined right.
27mm
13.8g
Youroukova 182-4, 186; RPC I 1708

 

Everybody, from BMC to Sear, agrees yours is Augustus and Livia and Rhoemetalkes I and his queen. Neither BMC nor Sear names the queen. These references only call her Rhoemetalkes I's wife. Forrer thinks she's Pythodoris.

 

Well, here's mine....and all I can say is that it has been attributed to Augustus, Rhoemetalkes and Pythodoris... but it does look a lot like Tiberius

 

Not sure on answer to your question Roman Collector, but nice coin with attractive patina. I do know that these Thracian kings portraits of Augustus can vary quite a bit, here is mine bought years ago and still not photographed properly yet, but I will get around to it. Top photo Augustus.

 

nice! i like those double bust types, but don't have any yet. that looks like Tiberius's bust. i have one similar to AA's

 

I don't have one of these, but I've always thought it looked too much like Tiberius rather than Augustus.

 

With that obverse inscription, BMC, Forrer, and Sear all attribute that to Augustus and Rhoemetalkes I.

 

..could be one of those Augustus coins with a Tiberius bust

 

Bizarre Thracian love triangle it is, it seems! LOL!

Anyone know where Sear may have gotten his info that this was Tiberius/Rhoemetalkes II?

 

Never questionned it as being possibly Tiberius...


Augustus and Rhoemetalkes, Bronze
Semi autonomous coinage of Thracia, c11BC-12AD
KAISAROS SEBASTOU, Bust of Augustus right
BASILEWS ROIMHTALKOU, Busts of Rhoemetalkes and his wife right
9.82 gr
Ref : Sear #5396


Q

 

That's because yours is Augustus. All sources agree that those with the ΚΑΙΣΑΡΟΣ ΣΕΒΑΣΤΟΥ obverse legend is Augustus/Rhoemetalkes I.

Sear, however, attributes all coins with the ΑΥΤΟΚΡΑΤΟΡΟΣ ΚΑΙΣΑΡΟΣ ΣΕΒΑΣΤΟΥ, such as mine, to Tiberius, while BMC does not.

 

Augustus I have noticed always shows a long skinny neckline so I vote is for him,
as for the others I will leave that up to the experts!