Auction Catalogs: Who Uses/Buys Them ?

But the Red Book each year just updates prices more or less, right ? I think they may alternate sections that have commentaries on coins (I have the 67th Edition which I think is for 2013) but for the most part the prices change.

And older Red Books -- I have the 1970 edition -- seem to have just 1 or 2 commentary sections and then just prices the rest of the way.

Each catalog seems to be unique and has lots of photos and commentaries on the coins in that particular sale.

 

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Got my Thaine B. Price Catalog today....it's nice, hardcover, plus COA signed by David Akers. Information/commentary is also useful and original, all in one place (I have lots of Akers non-book commentary from HA archives).

Only thing is for some reason pictures are not in color, which was disappointing for a catalog put out in 1998.

 

I liked the TBP Catalog so much and wanted to preserve it that I bought a 2nd one, in softcover.

 

Got the Browning "Dallas Bank" collection. Much thicker than I thought with alot more items.

I think I've pretty much gotten most of the historical catalogs with actual informative information on Saints. Just a question of other coins descriptive information or having some very famous auction catalogs, irrespective of the information contained within.

 

Anybody know why the TPG grade & number aren't part of the main description in alot of the catalogs I see ?

The Dallas Bank/Browning one was from 2001, 15 years after the TPGs were started. I can't believe most/all of the coins were raw in that collection.

They keep using the old, pre-TPG descriptions of "Gem Uncirculated" or "Brilliant Uncirculated."

 

Bump.....as an aside, the Thaine B. Price catalog from 3 years earlier has a mixture of graded and raw Saints and other coins.

 

@GoldFinger1969 I believe that comes down to the Auction House.

I have seen many online auction sites using just descriptive and no numerical grade fairly regularly.

I believe that if the Auction house is run by Old School peeps there tends to be a preponderance of Descriptive grades, when it is a newer group they tend towards using Numerical grading. Just my own experience and thoughts to toss into the pan...

 

Thanks Leuds....I didn't think it was likely that an entire collection could have been pre-1986 TPGs. Makes sense !

 

ADOLPHE MENJOU: Does anybody have the 1950 Adolphe Menjou catalog ? I believe it was done by Kosoff and Kreisberg.

Was wondering if it is very rare on the secondary market as I may have located one.

 

https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctionlots?AucCoId=511107&AuctionId=515382

 

Darn it, I missed that 1950 sale for that book....I could have won!

 

I don't buy old auction catalogs any more because most of the information in them is now on line, at least for the major auction houses. They take up a lot of storage room and are a bear to catalog so that you can find them. If you kept everything from Heritage, you would have a warehouse filled in a couple years given the number of sales they have.

I do have some old auction catalogs in my library. I bought a collector - dealer's library many years ago which included hard cover copies of the Eliasberg, Norweb and Garett sales. The Eliasberg sales were especially good because of the completeness of the collection and the "Dave Bowers Auction House Write-ups." I was recently amazed when I found a great deal of information for an article that I was writing in an Eliasberg sale catalog.

 

Very true, I only have a few moderns but I have a few classic ones that I have and am interested in adding to.

Those are great ones to have. I think the Norweb one is super-interesting, but the Eliasberg sale was so huge that I believe it went over many years (close to 15 ?).

Sometimes I find that while alot of the information in these catalogs -- or older books or older articles -- has been supplanted, little details sometimes get lost that are still relevant, particularly regarding small hoards, ownership of the coins in Europe, etc.

 

I receive paper catalogs from Heritage, Stacks Bowers, Legend and a few others. I enjoy paging through them but spend far more time on their websites. I download PDFs as soon as available. Then if I have PDFs, the paper catalogs go to the support group of the local library which has a book sale every Friday. I have a couple of bookcases full of coin books, but few catalogs.

Some auction companies inconsistently make PDFs available. Legend is a prime example. At a show, I made this point to Laura. She replied, “What’s a PDF?”. Oh, well.

Cal

 

I grabbed one that belonged to a guy named Henry Grunthal, an ANA Member and the book was signed to K&K in September 1950.

#97 out of 300.

 

The Menjou Catalog (1950): Just got this beaut this week.

Adolphe Menjou was an actor from Silent Era and The Golden Era of films. Wow, talk about a trip down memory lane. Created to sell part of his collection, the catalog had a Quintuple Stella 1879.....1841 Quarter Eagle....1815 Half Eagle....1875 $3 gold.....Trade Dollars of 1884 and 1885.

Abner Kreisberg and Abe Kosoff prepared the catalog and oversaw the auction. You veteran guys must know those names.

Total raised was $134,627. 2,200 items for sale.....the Quintuple Stella was estimated to sell for $5,000 but went for $3,400. The Trade Dollars of 1884 and 1885 were estimated to sell for $1,000 and $2,000 respectively....actually sold for $765 and $1,350.

 

Saints In The Mengou Catalog: First, I noticed a "Rare St. Gaudens Proof Double Eagle" headline. This is an alleged Proof MCMVII High Relief Saint. So the term "proof" was used formally in catalogs like this prior to NGC creating them on the label. The commentary notes that the proof "came from the widow of a gentleman associated with the mint in 1907." I think this could be Barber Coins, I have to check RWB's Saints book. The widow had 2 of these Proof High Reliefs...and "the $10 rolled edge with periods and the wire edge with periods."

Kosoff & Kreisberg noted that the coin was rarer than the MCMVII UHR which was "valued at $3,000." But despite a $1,000 estimate the "Proof" HR Saint only sold for $825. A pair of MCMVII HR's (wire & flat) were estimated to sell for $125 each but sold for $117.50 and $112, respectively.

The 1921 Saint estimated to go for $750 but nabbed $575. A 1929 Saint estimated at $500 but got $300. Both coins "Uncirculated."

A 1924-S Saint is called "the rarest of all double eagles" (did K&K know something about the 1933's ? )...estimated for $2,250, went for $2,000. K&K said it was "the best" they've seen. A 1930 Saint estimated at $475 went for $385. The "Excessively Rare" (they like that phrase ! ) 1926-D Saint went for $2,000 with an estimate of $2,500. 1925 Saint Uncirculated went for $560 after a $650 estimate. 1931-D Saint was one of the few coins that went for a higher amount than expected: $1,325 vs. $1,100 estimate.

Remember...excluding the 1933 Saint (the confiscations had started)...the rarest at the time of this auction were the 1924-S, 1926-D, and 1926-S.

Cheapest Saints listed as "Very Fine" and considered commons was about $44.

Most coins, Saints and all others, went for LESS than the estimates. I wonder if the outbreak of the Korean War a few weeks later impacted bidding.

 

Other Coins, 1950 Menjou Auction: Here's a listing of the non-Saint notable sales in the 1950 Menjou Auction:

1802 Half Dime...at the time, they said no coins better than FINE were found and one in 1907 got $500. But this coin was estimated $ $750 and went for $425. According to the book, only 16 known (still the case ?).

1894-S Dime: 24 minted, only 7 said to exist at the time (still the case ?). This coin was supposedly a proof. Estimate @ $2,500 but went for $1,850.

1873-CC Dime: One of the FEW coins that went above the estimate...and boy did it !! Estimate was $1,000 it went for $3,650. Without arrows, described as a superb gem on par with the 1804 Dollar or 1913 Nickel.

1876-CC 20 cent piece (never even knew they made those !!)....estimated for $2,000 but went for $1,325. 10 specimens believed at the time.

1823 Quarter: 1823 over 22.....estimated $750 but sold for $465. Another coin that sold for a higher price a few years ealrier in the "World's Greatest Collection" auction. Somebody named "Atwater" also had a $750 specimen.

1827 Quarter: $3,000 estimate, $2,725 sold. 5 or 6 believed to exist at the time. A 2nd coin, a proof less lustrous, estimated $1,000 but went for $675.

1796 Half Dollar: 15-star variety....some rub/wear on high point....die line....estimated $600, sold for $590. The 16-star variety. Light circulated evidence or bag marks it estimated for $600 and sold for $600.

1838 New Orleans Half Dollar: Beistle (1929) said 3 pieces; K&K said 6-7. One sold at WGC for $1,600, Atwater $2,200, and Neil estimate was $3,000...this one ended up going for $1,650 despite estimate of $3,000.

1853-O Half Dollar: The Standard Catalogue had no value for this rare coin so no estimate...went for $890. The WGC, Atwater, Neil, Dunham, Geis, Higgy, Olden, and Stickney collections didn't have one.

1834 Quarter Eagle: Estimate $600, sold for $540. With motto. Proof-like might be proof.

1841 Quarter Eagle: Estimate $6,000, sold for 45,100. Highest priced coin. Struck only for private collections. Only 6 or 7 struck in total, 2 for U.S. Govt.

1863 Quarter Eagle: $1,250 estimate, $975 actual price.

1854-S Quarter Eagle: $1,250 estimate, $725 actual.

1875 $3 Gold Piece: $3,000 estimate, $2,675 sale price. Brilliant proof as listed in the catalog.

Panama Pacific Set: $1,350 estimate, $1,115 actual sale price.

$4 Gold Stella: $550 estimate, $500 actual price. Latin Monetary Standard creation coin.

1795 Half Eagle: $750 estimate, $500 actual price.

1815 Half Eagle: $5,000 estimate sold for $3,000...uncirculated, so worth 50% more than Standard Catalog price (VF). Could be finest 1815 of all.

1819 Half Eagle: $2,000 estimate, $1,100 sale price

1821 Half Eagle: $1,000 estimate, $600 sales price. The 1822 -- only 3 around -- had Brand Coin sell for $14,000 in 1944...a record for any coin.

1827 Half Eagle: $2,200 estimate, $1,525 sale.

1828 Half Eagle: $2,200 estimate, $1,402 sale.

1829 Half Eagle: $3,000 estimate, $2,200 sale. Small date.

1858 Eagle: $3,500 estimate, $1,750 sale.

 

Anybody bought any of those coins in recent years and have a new price to compare ?

 

Those coins? For the most part I would be surprised if anyone here has one of them.

Oh and I suspect that 1853 Half dollar should be an 1853 O