Attribution of Aethelred II Penny

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Publius2, Jun 14, 2022.

  1. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    I purchased this silver penny from a local coin shop last week and have been struggling to verify the seller's attribution. His attribution card is attached and when I asked him about it today, he said someone else had attributed it.

    The obverse legend matches up to that of Aethelred but the image does not match any regnal image I can find on Wildwinds for any ruler.

    The reverse legend does not seem to make sense to me at least when compared to the moneyer or the mint. Wildwinds does not list any EADWELD as a moneyer nor Canterbury as the mint for any Aethelred II coin.

    Is there another reference source available? Is Wildwinds known for not being complete? Sorry for what are probably newbie questions but this is my first foray into the Anglo-Saxon coinage.

    BTW, I verified the weight on the card.

    And, one final question: Do the marks on the reverse around the cross look like test cuts to you. Under a stereo microscope at 10X and 30X they appear to have been caused by a chisel-like tool.

    Aethelred II Penney Obv.jpg Aethelred Penny Rev.jpg Penny of Aethelred II.jpg
     
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  3. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Maybe ask this on Numis Forums and let us know what they say
     
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  4. AnYangMan

    AnYangMan Well-Known Member

    General attribution is okay, save for the mint and moneyer: should be Norwich, moneyer Eadwacer (EDP(=W)ECAER MO NORDWI, not a super common combination). Wildwinds only has a cursory listing of the mints and moneyers of Anglo-Saxon England; even the specialist works often miss a few of these combinations, as there were an enourmous amount of different ones. The rarest often known from single coins or even half of a coin! The dents on the reverse are 'peck marks', supposedly made by Vikings to verify their silver content and can be seen on a huge portion of Anglo-Saxon pennies of this period. Nice coin!
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2022
  5. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Can't help but beautiful coin, congrats.

    I'd love to add these to my English collection, but they're not wallet friendly.:sorry:
     
  6. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    Very helpful responses. I am totally new to this area of collecting but am considering trying for a complete collection of all AS kings. I have a personal interest since my paternal family is English/Anglo-Saxon with a particularly AS surname. My maternal side of my paternal grandparents is Welsh with genealogy tracing to a Welsh knight who emigrated to the Colonies in the early 1600s. Must have a poor knight if he needed to try his hand in the Colonies!

    @AnYangMan, can you name one or more of the specialized reference works you spoke about?

    Thanks again.
     
  7. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer

    here are two from the Medieval European Coinage (MEC) series

    vol1.jpg

    Medieval European Coinage: Volume 1, The Early Middle Ages (5th–10th Centuries): Volume 1, the Early Middle Ages (5th 10th Centuries)



    vol8.jpg

    Medieval European Coinage: Volume 8, Britain and Ireland c.400–1066: Britain and Ireland C.400-1066
     
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  8. TheFinn

    TheFinn Well-Known Member

    Poor, or he was running from the law.
     
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  9. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    I think J.J. North's English Hammered Coinage (2 vols, Spink) is still considered a standard reference:

    https://spinkbooks.com/products/eng...xon-to-henry-iii-c600-1272-by-jeffrey-j-north


    https://spinkbooks.com/products/eng...-i-to-charles-ii-1272-1662-by-jeffrey-j-north

    For the hyper-specialist, there is the Sylloge of Coins of the British Isles (SCBI, many volumes):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylloge_of_Coins_of_the_British_Isles#:~:text=The Sylloge of the Coins,of each and every specimen.

    All Anglo-Saxon and Norman coins are viewable online, according to the article.
     
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  10. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    Here's a similar piece, same type, mint and moneyer. In the CNG listing, "North" is the reference I listed above. "SCBC" is Spink's Standard Catalogue of British Coins, an annual handbook and price guide, not unlike the 'Redbook' for US Coins.

    621344.jpg

    https://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=28456
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2022
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  11. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    Beautiful coin - I like the little test cuts on the reverse.
     
  12. Kiaora

    Kiaora Active Member

    North is indeed the standard reference for the English hammered coinage. Each unique North number refers to a specific type, and the catalogue also includes a listing of the known mints and moneyer. Different mints and moneyer of the same type will all have the same reference number. This coin is North 777.

    The most specialised reference book for this era is still Hildebrand’s 1881 catalogue of coins in the Royal Swedish Coin Cabinet and still relevant. It lists all the coins by legend variations, with each coin in the collection having a unique number. Hildebrand numbers 3123 through 3126 are all of this mint and moneyer, with 3123 matching the reverse reading exactly.
     
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  13. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    I just ordered the 2018 edition of the North Volume I. Thanks for everyone's interest and assistance. I'm very familiar with 18th and 19th century US and North American Colonial collecting and have amassed a pretty decent library of reference materials both on the shelf and on-line. But medieval and ancient references and norms are like an alien world to me. Thanks for helping to bring a little order to this world for me.
     
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  14. mikebell

    mikebell Active Member

    Which since it's out of copyright can be found here:
    #6 - Anglosachsiska mynt i Svendka kongliga myntkabinettet funna ... - Full View | HathiTrust Digital Library
    It is in Swedish, though the concordance tables hardly notice - and are the bulk of the book. The plates illustrate the different reverse types.
     
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  15. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    I'll be talking about this coin and a little history at next week's meeting of my local coin club. For that, I prepared the following photographs showing what the legend letters stand for. For myself, I have a hard time deciphering the letters themselves not to mention what the Old English language and abbreviations stand for. I thought this would be interesting to the club members.

    Aethelred II Penny Obv-Second Photo-For Legend.jpg Aethelred II Penny Rev-Second Photo-For Legend.jpg
     
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  16. AnYangMan

    AnYangMan Well-Known Member

    Sounds like it is going to be a fun talk! Just two small points:

    - There is no ‘G’ after ‘AN’ on the obverse

    - The reverse letter transcribed as ‘W’ and superficially very much resemble a ‘P’ is actually a ‘Ƿ’ (Wynn), the Old English letter for the ‘W’ sound. The same goes for the second one in ‘NORDWI’. For the sake of ease they are usually transcribed as P's in auction listings and such, but these Wynns are actually one of the runic leftovers you see on coins of this period!
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2022
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  17. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    That's a big help to prevent me from appearing (and being) a half-educated idiot. That whole Old English thing is currently a mystery to me. I spent 30 minutes on You Tube trying to learn how to pronounce AE in Old English and I still don't have it.

    No G after N explains why I couldn't see it. So, AN stands for ANGLIA or something similar. The legend reading AETHELRAED REX (king of) ANGLIA.
     
  18. AnYangMan

    AnYangMan Well-Known Member

    Based on other Anglo-saxon types, where it is less abriviated, 'AN' stands for the genitive ‘ANGLORUM’; ‘Aethelred king of the Angles/English’.
     
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  19. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    I received my copy of North today and it's clear that saying I've scratched the surface is an overstatement. I love having new horizons to explore. Thanks to all who helped me launch this boat. Let's hope the boat doesn't turn into a Viking funeral!
     
  20. Parisi James

    Parisi James New Member

    The type is correct but the moneyer and mint attribution are incorrect - the mint is Norwich (not Canterbury) and the moneyer’s name is Eadwacer (or at least this is how the name is normalised). North is a standard reference book for all English Hammered Coinage and an invaluable resource but for Anglo-Saxon coinage you may find it helpful to look at the Corpus of Early Medieval Coin Finds (run by the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge). This contains the entire SCBI series as well as more recent finds in an online searchable database. You should be able to assess the rarity of the type/ moneyer/ mint and typically photos in the database will be good enough for die-matching. See here for a search on Eadwacer at the Norwich mint for Aethelred’s Last Small Cross type: https://emc.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/ad...=&Preservation=&startdate=&enddate=&emc-scbi=
     
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