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Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Marshall, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I think you nailed it. I took a better shot of the edge at an angle and I think this confirms a planchet flaw, Without the photo, I didn't even see this crack to the right.

    Sat Mar 14 08-57-17.jpg
     
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  3. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

  4. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I have a request for the numismatists here. I just purchased another S-195 and was looking closely at the reverse. Is there anything you can see that is different on Reverse F and Reverse P that can't be explained by non die differences? It appears that the stem positions with die scratched are the same, the recut bottom of E is the same and the stem length and directions are the same. Die progression of S-204, S-195, S-205 might work.

    On second look, S-204,S-205, S-195 works better. No Die State seen for the S-195 without the ICA crack which is light on the S-205. It also explains the diminishment of the clash at S O on S-204, though there still appears to be something there on some S-195s.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  5. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    S-204 (VII) P(A)
    S-204 (VII).jpg

    S-205 (III) P (B)
    S-205 (III).jpg

    S-195 (I) F (B) S-195 (I).jpg

    S-195 (II) F (B) Early S-195.jpg

    S-195 (II) F (B)
    Late S-195.jpg
     
  6. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    This one gas me stumped. I believe the obverse is 1800 18 only used on the S-212. There are indications that the crumbling below 00 could be a later die state with some PSD causing uncertainty.

    My problem is I have a relatively clean reverse fraction bar that doesn't seem to match either this or any other reverse and I've checked from the introduction of the 1797 Reverse in 1796 through 1803 when they were using large letters and number punches. It is wider on the left and slopes downward and gets thinner to the right. There is a slight ding on the left, but shouldn't affect the shape significantly enough to account for the problem.

    Obverse.jpg Reverse.jpg Fraction.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  7. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    This looks closest to the shape of the Fraction Bar. But if this is right, then the obverse is wrong or it's a new Mule. It's not perfect, but it does have the short Fraction bar and the right shape.'
    COMP Fraction NC-4.jpg 1800 NC-4.jpg
     
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  8. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    A new possibility exists, S-208 in Die State I, which has not been seen by Noyes, has the lower second 0 and HWH under the left side of the upright of R and the SHWH right of the right upright of E of this obverse. The S-212 has the HWH too far right of the upright of R.

    I had eliminated S-208 because all comps had either a heavy clash mark over the TY or a CUD there. This is pristine there. Breen called this die state extremely rare and Noyes had't seen one as of the publication of his book.

    Since S-208 shares the Reverse S with NC-4, it would not be a new variety, but one not seen recently in this die state.

    The hardest part is that the best example of NC-4 doesn't look the same as others but shares the die crack on the Reverse through RICA and that is what I use as a Comp. The fraction bar just looks longer and straighter than on other examples.
     
  9. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Love your game marshal. As usual. I have no idea. But i do love when you chase them big ole pennniees. I have never ever have even saw one in real time. Cuz i think you have most of them. Do you save W quarters. Or just coins starting with 179 something. Just asking. Can you post your prettiest cent
     
  10. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Oops marshall. Looked at post # 1. 3 years ago.
     
  11. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    I concur. Only kidding. I only wish i knew something about your coins. Are libraries open. Can you recommend a book?
     
  12. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

  13. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    For those just beginning on a budget, I recommend using one of the online postings of the Holmes collection sale in 2009 as a starting point to images of the known varieties of Large Cents. I use this one. https://www.icollector.com/The-Pre-Long-Beach-Sale_as14916?vm=0

    I've see Goldburg Auctions with a similar posting of that sale. There were actually several sales, but this is the best and most complete as a beginner's guide which is accessible to anyone online without charge.

    When you start getting drawn into more detail, you will find the best and most current information to supplement this by looking at auction catalogues produced by copper guys like Mark Borckardt at Heritage Auctions. While his signature isn't on the description, it is unmistakable when you read it. He provides history and background on the pedigree or provenance on many of his coins and assigns his opinion of the EAC grade and or rank of the listing as well as an updated rarity.

    This is the link I use frequently when looking for images from their archives. All you have to do is register and check in to use the archives. https://coins.ha.com/c/search-resul...1577+792+2088+51+307&ic=browsecategory-071713

    After getting access to the site, by clicking your name and logging in, select RESOURCES and then Large Cents to see a listing of all current and past Auctions. Type in a sheldon number or date and look at information in the description, making note of the date of the auction, for the most current information.

    Third, many seasoned collectors from the copper community are here on CT who are happy to help those new to this in specialized areas, Just have a thick skin for the curmudgeons since on any given day it could be any of us.

    When your ready to spend some money in this pursuit, buy the books. Most started with Sheldon's Penny Whimsy like I did because it was the cheapest, though it is now dated and the images are difficult to see.

    Next Breens Encyclopedia is a comprehensive source in a single book and it normally costs around $200. It is good, though getting dated itself to it's publication date.

    The best you can get now is the books by Noyes. Individually priced from $100 to $200, I picked up a set of 6 covering all the Large Cents for $600 a few years back. The first 4 books cover the Cents from Chains to Classic Heads which is where my interests fade.

    I'm really a Draped Bust guy first and Flowing Hair guy second. Classics, Half cents and colonial copper are tertiary interests.

    I hope this helps.
     
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  14. justafarmer

    justafarmer Senior Member

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  15. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

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  16. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I'm showing my age. I just looked in a Die State folder I created in 2016 and saw I've done this all before. I speculated then that these were the same dies.
     
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  17. justafarmer

    justafarmer Senior Member

    Tried to make an overlay map that contained many different elements that were engraved or punched into the die independent of the others. Highly unlikely for two different dies
     
  18. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody who doesn’t know anything...

    S-200
     
  19. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I've highlighted the point of concern for the Obverse 14 (S-208) attribution, even though it looks like the best candidate.
    It does look like the early die state which is quite different than the middle and late die states. The spacing of AMERICA with no letters touching is also compelling. The confidence builder is a string of chips lined up from the rim through the T to the head that disappears with the progression of the die.

    The reverse has some of the same problems I was having before but the direction of the stem works. The other things may be accounted for by wear and pmd.

    Thanks a lot for the assist.
     
  20. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Just a little observation I just picked up. There are a couple of different punches used on Early Large Cent Caps in 1793 and 1794 for the R and the M. In 1793, both the M and the R use wider devices on both the Obverse and Reverse Dies.

    1793 12            12 S-12, S-13.jpg 1793 29              L S-13, S-14, S-16, NC-6.jpg
    In 1794, a narrower R device is always used on the Obverses.
    1794 4                2 S-18a, S-18b, S-19a, S-19b.jpg
    This is useful to help distinguish a 1793 from a 1794 with just a glance at a single letter, R on the obverse.

    On the reverses, the Large M was replaced by the narrow M on the early dies.
    1794 42             A S-17a, S-17b{NC-4}, S-18a, S-18b.jpg

    continued on next post...
     
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  21. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    ...continued from previous post

    What I had thought was a new set of punches introduced in 1794 turns out to be a return to the punches used in 1793. The old wide R punch of 93 is used on Reverses H, W and FF.
    1794 49             H S-29, S-30.jpg
    1794 71            W S-48.jpg
    1794 80            FF S-63.jpg
    The wider M punch was used on Reverses U, W (as shown above), AA, BB, CC, DD, EE, FF (as shown above), II, JJ and KK.
     
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