Attribute This

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Marshall, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    No worries. What books do you recommend?
     
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  3. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    For the late date? My recommendation is Robert Grellman's U. S. Cents 1840 - 1857. Cost is about $100 if you can find one. It's out of print now and not the easiest book to find. I've checked and can't find a coin online for sale at the moment. I haven't used the Noyes book so I can't say how good it is. I have used his middle date book and it is good, but I like John Wrights book better.
     
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  4. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Hmmm thanks for all the info! 100$ is a lot for a book but maybe I'll have to grab one at some point.
     
  5. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    The S-111 arrived today and these are my photos:

    S-111 Obverse.jpg S-111 Reverse.jpg
     
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  6. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    The S-108 arrived today as well. These are my photos:

    S-108 Obverse.jpg S-108 Reverse.jpg
     
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  7. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    And the trifecta arrived today as this S-193 was added to my collection. It's not particularly rare (R4), but it fills a hole in my 1800 overdate set.

    S-193 Obverse.jpg S-193 Reverse.jpg
     
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  8. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    The S-193 Obverse appears to be Noyes Die State A and the Reverse appears to be Die State D (metal out of die below right side of fraction bar) to almost E with bulging below 100 but not yet a CUD of Die State E..
     
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  9. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Those are all three very cool coins and nice varieties.
     
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  10. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    This is an interesting pickup. It has dentil and bust detail but weak lettering and date. However, It is my first pickup of the earlier 1796 use of the reverse used on my 1797 NC-5s. This one has the 6 embedded in the bust making it the S-114 rated as R5-, but I've seen a lot of them available for three times the price.

    S-114 Obv 22.jpg S-114 Rev W.jpg
     
  11. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    This is my newest acquisition and my second attempt to acquire this piece. I first bid on a four coin set and was outbid at the last second for ~$140. This time I picked it up individually at $54 plus postage. The obverse is identifiable as the Marred Field 1794 Obverse 17. It has four known reverse pairings with the marred field, though it had been used earlier in it's die life on the S-30 and S-31 before the Marred field became significant.

    [​IMG]
    Now very little of the Reverse is identifiable, but ITE and dentils above are visible.

    All known varieties are very RARE with S-38 at R5, S-39 at R6, NC-2 at R8 and S-40 at R5+.

    Here are the reverses rotated to match the subject except for the NC-2.

    [​IMG]
    Here is the NC-2 which I finally found and is impounded in the ANS collection.
    [​IMG]
    Now I see the T directly inder or barely left of the dentil above with the upright of E just right of the second dentil right of the one over T. It most closely resembles S-39, but another possibility exists.

    Breen recorded his S-39 Die State III as:
    III. Extreme buckling obliterates ONE CENT and nearly touches R and (C)A. Leaves, ribbon ends, and right stem are still visible.

    Now Noyes photographed his Reverse Die State E with metal out of the die below the leaves under UN. It make no mention of such Die Buckling and none of the Photos indicate any obliteration, though one without the metal out appears to be unevenly worn there.

    It might be a fifth pairing with a previously unknown reverse die with the Breen State III and this coin being examples.

    I'm open for comments.

    ps I will copy this and post it in the Attribute This thread as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  12. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Due to how advanced the chips in the obv field are it isn'y likely, but I would mention that this ov was also used for S-30 and 31. I really don't think S-30 is possible because the chips don't get that extreme, but a late stage of 31 might have them that strong. Of the rev's you have pictured though I'd say Rev N.
     
  13. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I'm waiting to get the coin to see if I can get better shots of any detail of the reverse. I'm particularly interested in whether the top of the U might be visible since it's relation relative to dentils should eliminate a couple at least. While reverse N (S-39) looks closest, it doesn't seem like an exact match to me. The uprights of T and E look almost parallel and close unlike any of the four.

    It's a lot like looking at the IB on the S-182/S-183/S-184 obverses.

    I wish it was just a little sharper.
     
  14. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I now have a new candidate for the reverse ID. An earlier state of Reverse K used on the S-33. This is from the Heritage Auction Archives and looks more like the subject than any of the known pairings. I had skimmed past it because it normally has "spoke" through the I to the rim. This one does not and had central core Buckling/weakening.

    S-33 R K.jpg
     
  15. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I received the coin and new photos look different than the ones from the seller. It is definitely the same coin, but the new photos appear to change the positions of the dentils in relation to the uprights. The upright of T does not look like it is directly under a dentil. It now looks well left. It looks like Reverse M (S-38) now.

    1975212754736.jpg
     
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  16. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Back to more mundane pursuits. I picked this up last night because some of what appears to be damage might be from advanced die buckling.

    This S-257 has all the die breaks expected and appear stronger than even the supposed terminal die state. I noticed that most of the weakness on one side matches strength from the other indicating buckling dies rather than axial misalignment, though some does exist. S-257 R2.jpg

    I have found no other mention of bucklng of the Obverse die which might be evident at K3 and K9. I believe this would be a new (Breen) Die State VI or a Noyes 11(D) with M(E). But this would require a second pairing of those dies after S-258 was struck.
     
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  17. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    From the under $50 thread:

    I got a legit under $50 this time. $36.89 postage paid. It is my 6th example of this "very rare R5 variety." But this is the best one with the reverse thin bar used as the primary diagnostic. I've identified most by a die crack, right stem intersection with the ribbon and vine and unique berry positions because of copper spread on the reverse fraction. This one, though corroded, has better detail and definition.

    S-195

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  18. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I received this just a few minutes ago. Here are two photos of the die crack/CUD? that I thought might be a scratch, but it looks like a legitimate CUD to me. What do you think?

    1971117100202.jpg 19711171027736.jpg
     
  19. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    Little help with this one? Style 1 hair.
    20190711_194312.jpg 20190711_194254.jpg
     
  20. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

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  21. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I almost thought I'd pulled off a biggie, but I used the wrong photo to eliminate the S-112, which it is. I thought it was a NC-5 and made the impulse buy. Still an R4+, but not the R7+ I was thinking momentarily.

    1796 S-112 Obverse 19.jpg 1796 S-112 Reverse V.jpg
     
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