Athenian Owls are beautiful!

I agree 100% with the added character. I say it’s a great buy.

 

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Mind if I ask what the general cost for one that looks like the third one you posted? That one seems just fine by me.

 

I am down to my last two owls....

A transitional Pi type.



And a contemporary Egyptian imitative

 

nonamepottery @ ebay....

 

Hmmm. I can offer some comments as a dealer (and one who has sold out of all Athenian tetradrachms currently so dont accuse me of promoting!). Prices for these can be very dramatic and wide-ranging. It can be hard for me to comment specifically as I read the thread in its beginning and saw the coin in question but that Ebay lot has now closed and Ebay does not let you see the price realized unless you are the winner. So...in general:

There are a multitude of types of these coins, from early to late, large flans, compact flans, full crest, no crest, the list goes on. In general one can expect these coins in VF to sell around $300 and up and entirely depending on various factors. Examples with test cuts in general sell for $200-300. There are other factors involved, @Sallent showed his lovely example which has old toning (which for me has a premium but for others none). I would say that in general, one should expect to pay $500 for a nice example. It will entirely depend on you to decide (hopefully with much research) what works for you and what you are willing to pay.

With regards to the new hoard that is now out there: It might be career suicide for me to let collectors in general know what these coins cost at wholesale (and it is a whole lot more than what everyone thinks). However, I have already seen where many dealers are listing these in their auction with starting prices less than half of what I know they paid for them. They are taking their chances, so watch the auctions closely. One might be able to catch some of these very cheaply.

 

I really wish people wouldn't post active auctions on CoinTalk. The only person it helps is the seller.

 

The auction is still there at https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lanz-Greek...x6002-/302888966530?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true

Sold for EUR 604.00 (US $701.55)

An Athenian tetradrachm is a good deal if you can't get a better one for 50% more. $700 is not a good deal because I can find a better one for $1050. It is perhaps a fair price.

 

That is a good question. Some people would look at the flat feather detail on the owl or lousy style and not want it at any price but certainly not over $500. Other people would say it has a broad spread flan with lots of crest and be willing to go over $700. There is no 'right' answer. It depends on who is selling, who is buying and who is more desperate.

 

Yea, I dont know how Ebay works exactly, but when you click on the link it puts you to another coin. Anyway, not relevant. I can tell you conclusively that Lanz lost $200 on this coin (raw, not including money discount/transfer/postage, which is more).

So true. As a dealer, I am not buying any of the current hoard. Maybe I am a fool. Maybe I am a genius, but in the end I still have my money!

 

Just sharing what I have foud: regarding test cuts I read that: "Test cuts and countermarks demonstrates a complex system of applying test cuts and countermarks. The cuts typically appearing at the back or top of the head on the obverse and the countermark on the cheek, chin, or neck area. The combination of the two and the fact that the cuts rarely run over the countermark may suggest a two-step process in testing the coinage. While we may not fully understand the significance of this process, “What we do know is that the cuts and countermarks were part of a sophisticated and controlled process and not just the reduction of these coins into bullion by a barbarian people.” Test cuts, whether innocently applied or as a mocking gesture toward the success of the Athenian financial superiority of the time, are almost always cut into the head of the owl on the reverse.
More often than not, banker-marked coins will show more overall wear because of the fact that marked coins circulated far beyond the boundaries of their country-state of issue. Most such markings were the result of authentication and/or re-monetization in other countries, and received their counter-marks there, rather than close to home where they were more readily recognizable and accepted.
As grades increase to nice extra fine, which is about the best grade on these with only rare exceptions, price/value really depends on several factors such as overall character, strike quality, good metal, centering of strike, whether Athena's helmet crest is fully visible (rarely the case), whether the design elements of the reverse or owl side are completely on the planchet (the E is almost always slightly off), strike splitting, toning, and so on. Two coins of the same technical grade might be thousands of dollars apart in price just based on variations in the above-mentioned factors.
Greek coinage, and specifically the little owl, have inspired coin designs for over 2,500 years. One of the most famous examples is the story of how President Theodore Roosevelt carried an Athens Owl Tetradrachm as a pocket piece. His love for the detailed, high relief ancient Greek coin helped him to prevail upon sculptor and fellow Greek coin enthusiast August Saint-Gaudens to design the strikingly beautiful 1907 High Relief Gold Double Eagle."
https://www.gretaparker.com/pages/athenian-owl.html

These are my owls:
Classical owl type: Athena has an archaic almond shaped eye, that appears to unnaturally face the viewer.
Athens, Attica, ca 454-404 BC
20 x 25 mm, 16.90 g;
Reference: Kroll 8; SNG Copenhagen 39; Dewing 1591 - 1598; Sear 2526


Earlier fourth century BC Intermediate Style Owls, also called Late Classical Owls, Hellenistic Owls, or (confusingly) Transitional Pi-Style were issued during the century of Aristotle when Athens continued to flourish intellectually even though its military heyday was over.
The design is both more refined and coarser. In contrast to the almond-shaped frontal eye of Classical and Archaic Owls, the eye on Athena finally appears realistically in profile, triangular in shape, catching up aesthetically with other classical Greek coinage. But Athena's hair and, except with some of the earliest of these, the owl's feathers are rendered with less detail. Many sources indicate that Intermediate Style Owls were minted from c. 393 to 200 BC, though it's likely that their minting continued into the early second century BC.
Differentiating between Bingen's pi-style types can be difficult because they are not very dissimilar and because the ornament is often partially off the flan. There are also examples that are hard to categorize even when the floral ornament is clear.



20 x 25 mm; 17.17 g;
Athens, Attica, late 4th or early 3rd century after 393 BC
Reference: SNG Copenhagen 63; Kroll 15; SNG Delepierre 1469-1472;Sear 2537

 

and forgot this one, Athena's face is very damaged and the coin has a crack, but I like the countermark “ei” (Aramaic?). Have been told in another forum that this probably is a countermark from Gaza where the first coins were minted on the Athens model around 380 BC. Have been searching the web for this countermark but haven't been able to find it. If you happen to know about it please let me know
Countermarking of silver coins, most common in the Hellenistic period, was usually done by a state to show that foreign coins could be used as legal tender in its territory. If Athenian owls were also countermarked in Aramaic by Egyptian authorities in their struggle against Persia, this could be one of them.
Later Intermediate Style oblong Pi-Style Owl
19 x 24 mm; 17.10 g
Reference: SNG Copenhagen 64-65; Sear 2547;

 

I'd like to know where this quote comes from. Obviously they know little and I assume its just a generic website which is just copying bad information. The first line illustrates how bad it is. Test cuts and countermarks are just....test cuts and countermarks? Sublime. The position of such marks mean absolutely nothing, as anyone who has looked at more than just one or two examples. They appear in all variations and locations, as do nearly all such markings. There is nothing behind them other than simplistic randomness. The idea of barbarians is fanciful and imaginative, but in the end, well, just fantasy (well, maybe not, the Greeks were some of the most original ethnocentrists, and considered all but themselves barbarians). In the end test cuts are simply indicative of the issues of their time (and ours) of counterfeiting. Any merchant who suspected (or did not trust) a coin simply used a punch to see if there was base metal under the obvious silver.

Test cut coins do not show more wear that non-test cut coins. This is completely at random and depends entirely on surviving coins, many of which are completely worn down and many of which are close to mint state. The coin below is from my collection, and is roughly EF or better but exhibits a severe test cut:

 

let me see if I can find it again - have been organizing and writing notes about my dad's coins for more than 2 years and most of the time I did not write down the source. But let me check and I get back to you when I find it

 

one of the sources I found is https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/808801/athenian-owl-thread

 

Plugging that sentence into Google brings up many hits to CNG auctions. The quote seems to be a version of this blurb about test cuts found in a specific Balkan hoard which did not include Athens tetradrachms.

One such example:

https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=238750

The 1990s Balkan Area Hoard consisted of 78 official Hellenistic tetradrachms and 20 Celtic imitations, including the following: Philip II (2), Celtic imitations of Philip II (17) and Alexander III (1), various issues in the name of Alexander III (50), Philip III (1), Demetrios Poliorketes (3), Lysimachos (11), Seleukos I (4), Antiochos I (5), Antiochos II (1), Eumenes of Pergmon (3), and the Thracian king Orsoaltios (1). The exact findspot of the hoard is unknown, but a location in Serbia or western Romania seems likely. The latest datable coins would seem to indicate a burial around 240 BC, although this is complicated by the Celtic issues. The composition of the hoard is similar to other hoards from the Balkans (see Wartenberg & Kagan p. 395, note 1), and sheds light on the circulation of Hellenistic coins in the region. It also demonstrates a complex system of applying test cuts and countermarks.

Forty-three of the official Hellenistic coins from the hoard carry a trefoil-shaped countermark combined with one or more test cuts; the cuts typically appearing at the back or top of the head on the obverse and the countermark on the cheek, chin, or neck area. The combination of the two and the fact that the cuts never run over the countermark may suggest a two-step process in testing the coinage. While we may not fully understand the significance of this process, as noted in the publication of the hoard (p. 407): “What we do know is that the cuts and countermarks were part of a sophisticated and controlled process and not just the reduction of these coins into bullion by a barbarian people.”

 

Ken, that is an awesome piece! I would love to have that in my collection! It looks like Athena has come alive and is hungry!

I have a few owls as well.
Here's my favorite and I challenge anyone to show a coin that has less self-esteem! It appears everyone thought it was fake!

Classical (Old-Style), c. 454 - 404 B.C. Athens Owl Tetradrachm


Athens, Greece, Pi-Style III Tetradrachm, 353 - c. 340 B.C
Unlike the customary flans of 5th and earlier 4th century Athenian tetradrachms that have solid, rounded edges from having been cast in a mold, these were struck on thick planchets made of flattened, folded-over, older tetradrachms. The flattened coins were not just folded in two but were folded over a second time to produce a planchet of three or four layers


Eastern Imitation?

 

That's an interesting link and good reading. As you point out it has nothing to do with Athenian tetradrachms, but I think it has great relevance. The hoard referenced was very small, just 98 coins where other hoards (Athenian and otherwise) number in the many tens of thousands. But in that case it would seem that the hoard represented either a specific banker or worker within a very small specific frame in time. What we get is that whoever was making the bankers marks (in that very small time frame, liberally within one persons lifetime) is that one specific person preferred to test cut the coins in that specific manner. Countless thousands of other coins show that test cuts were done all over the coins and in all orientations. It can only be surmised that some bank workers preferred to cut the coins in one manner, others in another.

And this is just another example of how ancient numismatics can still be studied and theories can be presented. I can only imagine that some college graduate could engage in a study of all extant and published coins and perhaps make a relation between the countermarks, the date of the coins, the locations, etc.

Interesting to say the least.

 

I don't know... I completely understand what you are saying but with everyone keeping good eBay sellers to themselves as a newbie it can really feel like a closed shop.

 

That is an amazing coin... but something is off... maybe one more test cut to be sure!!!!

 

Thank you very much TIF for clearing this up. My bad I mixed up the CNG note about the Alexander type tetradrachm with the one about owls ! my apologies