Athenian Owl hoard?

The earring on weakly struck coins may not show separation between the inner and outer circles but I believe more people are looking for strong separation in the hair of the forehead. I am more impressed by the nose being on flan and not crowded and good feather detail on the owl. To date, I have seen a couple hundred of these and most were nicer than what I see in that photo.

I don't think we know the eventual price for the low end (nose free, poorly struck) coins especially if there are twenty thousand of them. I have talked to two different people who have bought "rolls" of the nicer ones but what is the market saturation point for the dogs?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I wonder about both of those things when people talk about the earring (remember the person on ebay who wanted a million dollars due to the full earring? ). I think Nemo is probably right about what @1934 Wreath Crown had in mind. Maybe he'll tell us.

My understanding is that the hoard was heavily weighted in favour of better quality tets. It may be that the low end prices will drop less, proportionally, than the high end ones.

 

Do you know that is the first time I've heard it referred to as hair and when I look closely, you could be 100% right. Braided hair not earrings.

Sometimes these things can deceive the eye. Thanks @Nemo

 

I bought my first owl tet this year and do believe the prices are declining due to the massive influx of high grade coins on the market. High grade well-centered coins (nose on flan, reverse showing the full square punch) are still not cheap but they can be acquired for less money than just a few years ago. I suspect the lower end coins (grade-wise, plus the later "transitional" and post-mass-emission tets) are suffering price-wise too since people who may have otherwise gone for a markedly less expensive later issue are now able to pick off lower grade "classical" owl tets for a similar price.

Here's the coin I bought in May 2019; formerly slabbed; $833.62 including BP and shipping. Not a steal but a very good price. Must-haves criteria for me: nose fully on flan (I didn't mind losing the crest); well-centered reverse clearly showing the square die; detailed owl, nice/regular flan shape.

ATTICA, Athens
c. 454-404 BCE
AR tetradrachm; 17.21 gm, ~25 mm
Obv: head of Athena right, with frontal eye
Rev: owl standing right, head facing, closed tail feathers; olive sprig and crescent to left; AΘE downward in right field; all within incuse square
Removed from an NGC slab; AU 5/5 strike, 3/5 surfaces, "Parliament Collection"
Ref: I really don't know. There are so many catalogs and types and I have no idea how nitpicky various catalogers are. Reid Goldsborough noted that David Sear said there were so many owl tets that in all his years he's never seen a die matched pair! Suffice it to say that this coin is authentic and it is from the "mass emission" period... a "classical owl tet".

@ValiantKnight scored one of the best deals I've seen lately in terms of quality for price.

 

And this comment I believe is why many people buy more than one of these coins. Often one cant find or afford a coin that 'has it all'. But as one can only display one side of a coin at a time, it makes sense to buy two, one with what fits ones definition of 'perfect' for both obverse and reverse.

It's been many years since I 'rubbed elbows' with those in the know in the business. I could find out I suppose, with a simple phone call. But I have no interest. The numbers of the hoard really dont matter so much as long as the market can absorb them without crashing the retail price (which wont happen). Proper hoard management has always been done to preserve value in the past. As for market saturation on the lower end, I dont think there is one, really. Some years back there was another larger hoard of late period tets in the aVF or so level. They averaged at the time $75 to $150 retail. Those coins are all gone now, and these same coins are now generally $150 to $250.

I never really bought into the idea that what we are looking at is an ear with an earring. Most ancient helmets (most but not all) generally protected the ears as well as the rest of the head. It's always been my position that what we are looking at is a decorative portion of the helmet itself. You may notice that few catalog their coins in such a way at all anymore (earrings that is), but simply avoid mentioning whatever it is that is depicted.

High end examples have long been in the $1,500 and up category, and we still see this now. The difference is that now we have a lot of really high grade examples what have slight centering flaws, generally available under $1,000 or right about there after buyers premiums.

 

Ken Dorney, posted:

I never really bought into the idea that what we are looking at is an ear with an earring. Most ancient helmets (most but not all) generally protected the ears as well as the rest of the head. It's always been my position that what we are looking at is a decorative portion of the helmet itself. You may notice that few catalog their coins in such a way at all anymore (earrings that is), but simply avoid mentioning whatever it is that is depicted.

I disagree. But again, I'm not an expert.

1. It is an obvious earring. Hair (even stylized) does not have a jewel (dot) in the center of a curl. These guys were artists. If they had wanted hair around the ear, it would have looked like a hair curl. Besides, I imaging a woman of the day would wear ear ornamentation - even if she were a Goddess!

2. She is NOT wearing a helmet w/ear protection. The ear is totally exposed.

I guess we'll never know as I can understand your position of an ornamental helmet with an ear design too.

 

I never really understood the desirability of even an ornamental helmet for an immortal goddess. Protecting the head would not be high on the list for one who could not be killed.

 

Since news of this hoard reached my ears a few months ago I've been looking for a better bang-for-the-buck example than what I was able to buy 3 years ago. And yet, I can't find one. I do see an increase in listings of classic Athenian owls on multiple venues so I don't doubt the hoard's existence, but the increased supply doesn't seem to have lowered the cost of acquiring one. :-( Is it just me?

 

I bought all but one of my owls before the current hoard (clever me) This is one Athens tetradrachm 450-440 B.C. Flament Group II 13/b 17.22 grms

 

I asked elsewhere but didn't get a straight answer.

Is it safe to say that the hoard (or hoards) full of owls and Asia Minor staters were illicitly smuggled out of a country like Turkey from which the export of such material is prohibited?

I don't personally care mind you, and as long as the "Elgin" marbles are kept from where they clearly belong in my mind I won't be receptive to the moralizing of folk suggesting that one is trafficking in cultural heritage by buying common coins or artifacts from places like Spain, Cyprus or Turkey, but I do wonder how such individuals can tut-tut about a 10 dollar coin or arrowhead but say nothing about the liquidation of millions worth of rare or desirable coins that actually would add to our collective understanding of ancient trade networks and economics if studied as an intact unit.

Can anyone explain this apparent hypocrisy to me?

 

C'mon guys except if you're looking for the most exceptional coin, the prices are ridiculously low compared to before the hoard. Eg this one sold 600$ + fees recently

 

That coin is comparable to one I spent over $900 on 3 years ago.

 

I love that coin and consider it better than many I have seen recently for much more but many people in the high end of the market will not look at any coin with wear above the eye or on the owl wing. They would rather have a fully struck, wear free coin with the nose off flan. That makes no sense to me but when people think any and all MS coins are better than the finest EF, there is nothing left to say.

 

some comparisons from CNG... Coins from 2010/2011 Hammer prices.. vs 2019

$750


$1200

$1550

$3250

$4200


VS


2019....

$280

$477


$525

$1400

$1500

 

@pprp & @arnoldoe Thanks for your posts! They have motivated me to keep looking!

I want to upgrade the example I have. But for budgetary reasons I'm not seeking one as wonderfully nice as the one posted by @pprp . (I would however quickly and joyfully add it to my collection if it appeared under my Christmas tree!)

Mine is on a tight flan, has wear on the high points, a bankers mark in a field, the poor little owl took a test-cut blow to his neck, and he has a crack from his beak up through an eye. Ouch! :-( But then, I paid just $255 for it 3 years ago in a competitive eBay auction listing by a well-known seller. 28 bids; 11 bidders.


The example from CNG that @arnoldoe included which hammered for $280 + 18% fees = $330 would be an upgrade to mine, and I may well have bid on it had I seen it. (But because there was already at least $280 bid on it, my bid would have taken it up to yet a higher level.)

Funny thing though... now after having retrieved mine from the flip and looked at it closely in-hand again, I feel myself possibly growing more content with it. It has character, was obviously in circulation, and has even been tested and found 'good'. Besides, who would want my poor little damaged owl if I sold it?

 

I am under the impresion that respectable yet low end owl tetradrachms tend to sell at temptingly low prices at the moment. The following example hammered at 130 CHF this summer, after buyer's premium it came down to about $155. It has a large test cut, significant wear, and most of the crest is off-flan – yet, Athena's face is complete, surfaces and metal are problem-free, and the overall impression is that of a worn but attractive coin. Five years ago, it would probably have hammered much higher.


Attica, Athens, AR tetradrachm, ca. 440s–430s BC. Obv: head of Athena to right, wearing crested Attic helmet decorated with three olive leaves and palmette. Rev: AΘE; Owl standing right, head facing; to left, olive sprig and crescent; all within incuse square. 24mm, 17.14g. Ref: Kroll 8. Ex Leu, Webauktion 8, lot 232.

 

In answer to Plumbata question. Absolutely I am sure that there are individuals and institutions who would love to shut down the selling of these coins and herd the whole bunch of them into some museum basement. I think the problem for them is
1. No one knows (or is not telling) how big the hoard is.
2. No one is telling where it came from. Notice the lack of a nifty hoard name.
2a. No one is saying if any of the other coins we have been seeing some numbers of lately are from the same group. (This would help narrow down locale).
2b Nor are they saying that the test cut owls which have showed up recently in some auctions are a part of it.
In fact what we got is a great big zero. If a government wanted to have these coins seized, they would first have to establish where and when the coins were in fact excavated and that it happened in their sovereign territory. Otherwise one could just as easily claim is that what we are looking at is a really enormous collection of Athenian tetradrachms put together over many decades by a collector who hated toned coins.
Okay The owl that started my quest to understand these birds. Tetradrachm of Athens circa 415-410 B.C. Flament Group III 17.20 grms Purchased in March 2014 (again before the big hoard...er collection PS This is when I got my copy of Flament

 

I do wonder when these coins were found. There is no reason to believe that they are very, very recent or from anywhere near Athens. Large groups of these supported trade across the world in the time these were made. There is no reason they might not have been secreted somewhere waiting for politics to allow them to move and there is no reason to believe this is the only similar group in some basement from who knows where. This is a hazard/blessing of ancient coins. You never know when there will be a find of thousands of something that once was rare. You don't even know if someone made that find a generation ago and is waiting for the best time to bring them out. I'll probably regret not buying an upgrade owl now while they are available but they are not what interests me now.

 

This is somewhat unrelated but does have something to do with Athens. Lately I have been working on a seminar on Greek coins which I will be giving in two weeks. As a part of this seminar I have set up a powerpoint display to illustrate the talk. I happened to notice this Flament Group III/II Obverse III 16 Reverse II r And this one Flament Group III Obverse III 16 Reverse III d Though both obverses are not from the same die they are remarkably close

 

Yes, they were certainly dug and smuggled illegally and unethically, but the situation that made that happen can also be partly laid at the doorstep of the people who set up those laws in the first place. If this had been found in Britain, such a hoard could have been reported, recorded, and even archaeologically recovered in such a way as to recover the maximum amount of information while still respecting the rights of the finder or owner. There, such finds are either kept as the property of the owner, or declared treasure, in which case a museum would have the opportunity to acquire them from the owner at a price deemed fair by a board of independent antiquities experts. Unfortunately, most of the world has gone the opposite direction, and wherever these coins were found they would have likely been taken without compensation if reported to the proper authorities. That incentivizes smuggling, rather than stopping it.

How much information was lost by this is difficult to gauge. It all depends on where they came from and what context they were in, which we will never know. Someone may be able to salvage some economic information from them by trying to reconstruct the hoard via auction catalogues, but it will never replace what was lost, and that should be a sad thing for anyone who cares about the past.