As/dupondius Marcus Aurelius - a few questions

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by catadc, Oct 18, 2019.

  1. catadc

    catadc Well-Known Member

    Normally I do not buy coins I do not know about. This one was interesting for unclear reasons (can I use the "spoke to me" reason?) and it was the price of a cheap canteen lunch, no dessert. Normally I do not dive under year 200 a.d.

    The coin is 22.5-25 mm and 8.97 gr.

    What I am pretty sure it is: Marcus Aurelius as or dupondius struck under Antoninus Pius, AVRELIVS CAESAR AVG PII F COS, bare head right / IVVENTAS S C, Juventas, wearing a long robe, standing left, holding a patera, sprinkling incense on a candelabrum. RIC 1238, Sear 4831.

    Now the questions:
    I had a look on wildwinds, acsearch and a few online stores and the legend split on the obverse is CAE-SAR. For my coin, seems to be CAES-AR, with a clear -AR to the right and I can guess an S on the left side, which is the split I saw on denari. On the obverse, the position of S C and the shape of the candelabrum seems to vary a lot. But I saw no variance on the split of CAESAR. Would such a variation be possible?

    Is it an as or a dupondius? What I read is that dupondius is made of orichalcum, which seems to be the case.

    Last - any reasons to doubt the originality? The rim seems fine. The weight is a little low, on which I would blame the size of the blank (part of legend is off-flan).

    Any comments appreciated. Thank you

    20191018_085157.jpg 20191018_085229.jpg
     
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  3. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Each die was an individual work. Some series were very consistent about legend splits while others were random. Even the regular ones will have a few dies with a variation forced by running out of space. Some splits have meanings. I am not a Marcus specialist so I do not know the situation with this coin.

    A coin this size made of orichalcum is a dupondius. Radiate crowns were not used on dupondii of women and young Caesars so we have some coins that get cataloged "dupondius or as". Your coin shows the yellow metal so we know it was a dupondius. Patinated coins are more difficult to separate. The 10.1g Commodus as Caesar below hides under patina. What color is the metal? Is it a dupondius or an as? (as) Do you want to be sure badly enough to cut it to see? (I don't.)
    rc2430b00976lg.JPG

    The ancient mins varied in how strickly they took the matter of weight. Some are very consistent. More were more concerned that they made the correct number of coins from a pound of metal so it is common to find some a bit heavy and others a bit light.

    Unfortunately there are people out there who delight in proving that people who claim to know are easy to fool with their photos so some of us must point out that it is NEVER completely safe to say a coin is genuine without having seen it in hand. That said, I see nothing to make me doubt the coin. I would be shocked to learn that your coin was not real.
     
  4. thejewk

    thejewk Well-Known Member

    Looks fine to my inexpert eye and I'd concur with the attribution. The one on Wildwinds actually has the entirety of CAESAR on the left of the portrait, beginning on the right with AVG. The legends can vary in positioning quite a lot on the coins from Antoninus Pius onward in my experience.
     
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  5. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    That's a nice coin and I have no reason to doubt its authenticity. It is indeed RIC 1238. Here's page 174 of RIC 3:

    Capture.JPG

    The obverse inscription description is CAE-SAR not because that's where the break "should" be, but because there wasn't enough space in the column to break it elsewhere. In the Antonine period, there is a lot of variation in the spacing between letters on inscriptions and, as far as we know, these lettering variants are not associated with different issues, different officinae, different mints, etc. RIC and Sear do not distinguish between catalog listings in coins with different breaks in the inscriptions on either the obverse or reverse.

    In coins of the post-Constantine era, these differences are often significant, however, and may indicate different issues.

    The British Museum does describe the breaks in the inscriptions on the coins of their collection, simply to be complete in their description, but they do not note any significance to such breaks other than identifying them as being from different dies. Here's page 227 of BMCRE4:

    20191018_045440.jpg

    You'll see that three of the four specimens in the British Museum have the CAE-SAR break and one has the CAESAR-AVG break. Yours happens to be different. The British Museum specimens each have variations in the spacing of the letters in the reverse inscription. Moreover, the candelabrum on the reverse varies a lot in design between them. This, for example, is the candelabrum/altar on BMCRE 1408:

    00671551_001_l.jpg

    You're free to collect how you wish, but few collectors insist on collecting the subtypes of these. All but the most OCD Antonine specialist would list this as RIC 1238, BMC 1407-10, Sear 4831, Cohen 393 and call it a day.

    I think your coin is dupondius, because of the orichalcum color, but (as @dougsmit has aptly explained) you can't always tell. The British Museum describes BMCRE 1408 as "dupondius or as."

    The weights are all over the map, and yours is lighter than average for the issue, but that's of no concern. I have Antonine middle bronzes that weigh in the 8 - 9 gram range.

    Enjoy the coin. It's nice!
     
  6. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    @Roman Collector, your posts are always incredibly detailed, thoughtful, and interesting, whether responding to someone else's question or starting your own threads. You are awesome!!

    Ditto for @dougsmit :)
     
  7. PlanoSteve

    PlanoSteve Well-Known Member

    Very nice specimen & excellent responses! :happy:;)

    However,...

    Yeah, I don't think so. The many of us here (Ancients, US & World collectors combined) have already used up the planets maximum lifetime use of that phrase. You will have to come up with something else, & then please share it with us, as we are collectively running out of viable excuses. :D;):singing:
     
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  8. Thomas c

    Thomas c Veni, vidi, vici, Julius Caesar

  9. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    I very much agree! I gave up on @dougsmit , but I keep invading @Roman Collector 's Roman Empire threads with Roman Republic postings. I am just trying to get his interest up, so that he can start posting cool threads and info on his research into Republic coins.

    I reckon he is pretty slow... he has not picked up the mantel yet... Yeah, that's it... he is pretty slow. :D :D :D
     
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  10. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    :hilarious::hilarious:
     
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