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Message:: [QUOTE="Lehigh96, post: 690641, member: 15309"]Mike, I understand your position, but intent is impossible to prove simply based upon viewing a coin. I think that was Eddie's point as well. When the TPG's grade a toned coin, they can't prove intent and usually they have no information about the history of the coin. They simply view the coin and make their determination. FWIW, I believe they have 4 catergories regarding toned coins. Two that will body bag and two that get graded. Here are the categories NT--------------------Natural ToningQT MA----------------Questionable Toning Market AcceptableQT NA----------------Questionable Toning Not AcceptableAT--------------------Artificial Toning If you put them on a scale it might look something like this: AT--------------------QT NA--------------------QT MA--------------------NT Your theory is that if we ignore intent that it opens the door for the coin doctors to (a) decieve collectors and (b) decrease the value of existing NT coins. I believe that both of these factors hinge upon the performance of the TPG's with respect to grading toned coins. Most if not every toned coin collector I have spoken to believes that at present the TPG's do very good job limiting the number of AT coins that get slabbed even with the use of the market acceptable practice. This confidence in the TPG's to ensure NT coins with an acceptable % of AT coins along with consumer demand is what sustains current values. Furthermore, I believe that consumer demand is directly related to the performance of the TPG's.  The real question to me is whether or not the TPG's can sustain the confidence level that they have achieved until this point. If they can, the toned coin market is relatively safe. If they can't, there will be a severe detrimental impact on the market. The recent events regarding AT coins is very important. I understand why those involved believe that public information about these events is the best way to handle the situation, but I disagree. Personally, I think it creates an irrational fear that will lead to an erosion of the confidence in the TPG's ability to separate NT from AT. I think the whistle blowers would have been much better off presenting their case to the TPG's behind the scenes without causing mass hysteria on the coin forums.  If the coin doctors are really getting that much better and consistent at their trade, it is vital that the TPG's recognize and react to this. Basically what this would mean for our scale is a change from this: AT--------------------QT NA--------------------QT MA--------------------NT to this: AT---------------------------QT NA--------------------QT MA-------------NT  It has always been my understanding this it is widely accepted that a certain number of NT coins and their colors are undeniably natural. If we consider this percentage fixed, the area that will suffer is the market acceptable coins. As the coin doctors get better, the TPG's will be forced to reduce the number of market acceptable coins they slab in order to maintain consumer confidence levels. Under certain circumstances where QT MA range becomes very small and consumer confidence is not affected, the prices and values of toned coins could actually rise due to a shortage of new material in the market. I don't expect this to happen, but I don't rule it out either. In conclusion, I think the whole problem would disappear if everyone adopted Doug's rationale that if you can't tell then it doesn't really matter as long as the coin has eye appeal. Since getting everyone to adopt that rationale is unrealistic and it is impossible to determine intent, the only option we have left is the confidence in the TPG's to week out an acceptable level of the AT coins. Paul[/QUOTE]

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