Arrived today 1964-D Peace Dollar by Daniel Carr

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by dwhiz, Sep 29, 2010.

  1. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    "Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government."

    From the Hobby Act.

    I would say that this restrike purports to be a real 1964 silver dollar, which was legally struck. He may be a sharp dude, but I would have to be educated why this is not in fact a reproduction that is violating this very law. You saying restrikes/overstrikes are immune to me is only appliable to the US mint or foreign nations. Yes, he has a former mint coin press, but he is not the US mint.
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  3. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    In short, it is my understanding that first, "legally struck != original numismatic item" (i.e. the 64-d peace was never released and therefore it is not a numismatic item), and second, "The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government." (i.e. even if it fails the first test, the 64-d Daniel is selling is a restrike and therefore not included in the definition of "imitation numismatic item").

    There were a number of threads on the PCGS forum (some of which have been deleted) which laid out the logic.

    If you would like a more educated response, I would suggest that you send Daniel a PM on PCGS. He's a nice guy, responsive, and well aware of the laws on the topic (and betting his own freedom he's right!).

    Time will tell...Mike

    p.s. my opinion is that many flippers are betting you're right and Danie's wrong, and these coins will somehow magically turn into valuable items (e.g. 1933 saints).
  4. coinman0456

    coinman0456 Coin Collector

    You took the thought right out of my mind!!
  5. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    (i.e. the 64-d peace was never released and therefore it is not a numismatic item),

    Numismatic item does not necessitate it being released. Just the fact the mint designed it, cut the dies, did trial strikes and then struck 300 +thousands ( that were later theoretically totally destroyed) makes it a numismatic item.It is even given a number and illustration in Breen's (#5742).

    So do many people in many occupations, and the bet is always balanced with the hope of big money. The hobby reaps what it sows.

  6. BR549

    BR549 Junior Member

    I was PM'ed that one has already appeared on e-bay and that e-bay pulled the auction, why is anyone's guess, but skeptics agree the item being sold (1964-D Peace dollar) somehow violated some regulation.

    I wonder???
  7. Luke1988

    Luke1988 New Member

    According to the laws about altering U.S. coins, these coins have the same legal status as a hobo nickle or a love token, perfectly legal to own/make as long as you dont try to put it back in circulation.. But the laws about faking numismatic coins are not as clear since they did make 1964 peace dollars and there is a real chance some survive, also Carr is pushing the limits by making "Bulk-Handling Finish" coins that are even closer to the real thing.
  8. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    My understanding of that sentence is that re-strike or reissues made BY THE US GOVERNMENT or foreign governments are not imitation numismatic items. It has nothing to do with restrikes made by private citizens or companies.

    Now let's try the second sentence of the definition with some comments

    Such term includes an original numismatic item ( a genuine peace dollar?) which has been altered or modified in such a manner ( say by being overstruck with privately made dies?) that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item (A 1964-D peace dollar?) other than the one which was altered or modified.

    Looks a whole lot more like a 1964-D peace dollar now than the other dated peace dollar it started as. Seems to me it fits the definition of an imitation numismatic item as set out by that second sentence.
  9. Luke1988

    Luke1988 New Member

    I dont think he's a "fraudster" i just think he is a bit naive.
  10. robec

    robec Junior Member

  11. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    I think it comes down to how you interpret "by the US government or foreign governments" clause. Does it modify "any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item" or just "any original numismatic item".
  12. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I respect your opinions here Leadfoot and hope you haven't taken offense from posts here. We all know you are a straight talking, valued member of this board.

    I would say, not knowing Daniel's argument, that he is twisting the restrike clause to mean any restrikes and not what the plain reading of the statute states. The statute clearly states restrikes and reissues performed by foreign governments, (presumably the original issuers, ala Maria Theresa restrikes). Sounds like he is a lawyer and trying to twist that into meaning any restrikes by anyone, well that is EXACTLY what the law was written to stop. He sounds like either a lawyer or a smart guy trying to twist the law, but I sincerely hopes he fails. If we cannot stop this type of blatant counterfeiting in the US in plain daylight, how can we ever think we have any hope of stopping the mass forgeries coming from China. I am not blaming anyone from buying the coin, as I do think its interesting, but I personally have a metal stamp made with the word COPY made years ago, (I buy groups and have quite a few old copies pass through my hands), and I would be stamping that into any example I happened to own.

    It truly makes me sad an American is doing this. I wish him well with his press, and selling these, I just wish he would follow the law for the benefit of our hobby.


    EDIT: THere is a group in Arkansas creating restrikes of US coinage, (sorry forget the name), and they will let you choose which side has the copy stamp, but they absolutely refuse to let a coin out the door without the copy stamp on it. Many have tried and failed to get one without it. To me, those are reproductions which benefit the hobby and do the right thing.
  13. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

  14. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Damn I am too old. They were cool reproductions, I got the chain and wreath cent designs just for fun.
  15. rawbuyer

    rawbuyer Member

    true collectors don't buy this garbage...who would want a reproduction? save your money and buy the realy thing. i would be ashamed to own any reproductions or copies.
  16. CJackson

    CJackson New Member

    Dear Mr Carr, could you please go back and make some 1994 and before ASEs with a W stamp? The allure of these would be TOO great. Of course, we would all know that they are not originals, no one would think of reselling these as originals. Just use original ASEs from each year. I'm kidding of course.

    How long do you guys until someone gets burned from these buying it thinking its an original?
  17. rawbuyer

    rawbuyer Member

    I can't believe that people actually buy these "coins"..its a sad comentary on the stae of the hobby as far as I am concerned.
  18. Mr. Coin Lover

    Mr. Coin Lover Supporter**

    You said it, if someone wants one go for it. This is nothing compared to some things I've paid for in my life. It is also a great story. But, I don't really think there are any of the real ones out there.
  19. Luke1988

    Luke1988 New Member

    I think the reason people are buying them is because of the junk the mint has been making lately and the neglect to programs like the proof SEA's that are driving people to look outside of U.S. mint products to get their collecting "fix"
  20. usc96

    usc96 Junior Member

    Isn't that the point? There are no real ones to get. They were never issued and therefore do not exist.

    I expect most see these as a novelty. At our last coin club meeting someone brought a set of rarities and asked the group during the educational portion of the meeting to pick out the counterfeit coins. We passed them around, then got the answer that they were all counterfeit. It was a real eye opener.

    I think our anger is better directed at those replicating existing coins, rather than getting upset about a fantasy repo of a coin we all know doesn't exist.
  21. rawbuyer

    rawbuyer Member

    any repro is a waste of money..i'd rather burn my cash than spend it on junk!
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