Are these polish lines?

I first thought it was cleaned, but the luster is still there and after some searching I seen others graded 65 with polish lines like this. The lines that look like scratches dissapear when you rotate it in light.

Is it possible this would grade straight?

This isn't a series I'm familiar with.
Thanks

 

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They look raised, are they? If so they aren't cleaning hairlines. It's hard to see if there is a mixture of cleaning and die polish, but there could be.

 

See how the lines run underneath the devices? Thats indicative of die polish lines, therefore i would say YES, regardless of series these always look the same.

 

This is possibly a post clash die that has been freshened up. Do you have a photo of the obverse?

 

Here's the entire coin. I was going to return it but I think it's going to NGC now to see what they say.

I think I'll soak it in acetone before it heads off though.

 

On the available evidence I'm inclined to think them polishing lines. Love the coin.

 

The die scratches are what should have been the first stage of freshening up the die. All tool makers know you start with a coarse media to remove enough material to (nearly) eliminate the imperfection that initiated the need to do so and continue with finer media in multiple steps until you achieve an acceptable surface finish. The mints did not always complete this task. They just hit the die with a file and considered it done.

 

The die would have to have been wiped off with something harder than the steel to result in lines this heavy and if you think die polish lines or the first step in the die freshening process do not ever criss-cross you need to study the Morgan Dollar series. Here's an excellent example. http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P+VAM-1B1

 

As usual this is a good discussion. One of several on this subject I have read on CT. I have disagreed with Doug on much of his posts about "die polish"/"die scratches" - whatever we call it but these are a few things I hope most knowledgeable numismatists can agree on:

1. Raised lines on a coin (curved or straight, long or short, thick or thin, crossed or not) except for pushed up metal with a knife or tool are caused by "lines" imparted to the surface of the die at the mint.

2. There is virtually no way to put a significant line in a die by wiping it with a rag - even one with metal fillings trapped in lubricant! Die steel is tough.

 

We went through the same thing in another thread.

What are these if not die polish?

 

I believe all the disagreement is due to differences of opinion as to what we call these raised lines on the coin (incuse lines into the die surface) and how/when they were imparted to the die.

IMO, the solution is simple. Live and let live; post and let post. All I can tell you for a fact is that: U.S. MINT EMPLOYEES on the press floor and engraving department call these marks DIE POLISH. For that reason, I never bothered to pin down the floor superintendent or chief engraver to ask what types of "polish" occurred when or how. I can also state for a fact that these lines are called DIE POLISH in every authentication and grading seminar I have attended. It is also a fact (see photo) that whatever we call them - they can go in all directions and they can cross over and under each other depending which are deeper into the die!

PS I have also seen a press operator wipe a die in the press with a dirty, thin rag the size of a wash cloth.

 

Forgot an exception: These are lathe lines on the center (obverse cheek) of a Franklin Half dollar. They are characterized by a concentric circle of raised lines on the coin's surface. Normally, the engravers work on the master hub/die to remove all traces of lathe lines so they are not transferred to the working dies and then to the coin as they have in this case.

 

Could a file card scratch a die?

 

What do they use to take a clash out of a device. Small Dremel type tool?

 

There's a big difference between polishing for initial die prep/touchups during the die's working life, and polishing to remove clashing. With the former, by definition you want to remove as little material as possible. With the latter, you must remove material. The only way to make a clash go away is to abrade the field until the clash is gone, and as any metalworker knows that sort of operation is best accomplished approaching from multiple angles. It's just like automotive bodywork - if you only sand in one direction, you wear a groove into the object. You have to come from multiple angles to keep a reasonable semblance of "level" on the surface.

I'm inclined to think it's done by hand, at least from the evidence of the images we've posted here. A power tool would create multiple parallel scratches instead of the (relatively) individual ones we see in clash polishing, not to mentioned the quantity of curved lines which a rotary tool could only create if you were applying it end-on. And the possibility I mentioned of grooving the die is far greater with a power tool. Further, time is a factor in the operation - you want the die back in service as quickly as possible, unlike initial prep where you're stockpiling dies. So you need to do a lot of work quickly, under time pressure, which is reflected in the haphazard quality of what we're seeing here.