are these coins really associated with gaius marius?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by brassnautilus, Nov 25, 2015.

  1. brassnautilus

    brassnautilus Well-Known Member

    2 coins
    1st one
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I read somewhere (probably forvm) that this was made to celebrate marius' parade after his victory in teutones, and that no other quadriga had the little kid sitting on a horse.
    Was that just some wild theory? Was the moneyer associated with this event? His name is C.Fundanius.

    2nd one is this, there are places saying it was struck the year marius won military tribune, 119BC. Is there really written record this coin was made that year?
    I'm sure this was not directly associated with that event. I'd like to know what the reverse picture meant though.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Moneyer name M Furius L f Philus
     
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  3. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    The Fundanius denarii depicts a Roman triumph. It was made in 101 BCE. Whether it actually commemorates Marius or not, I have no idea. However, that motif is not really something rare in Roman coins. A lot of coins around that period depicted victory riding in a chariot drawn by horses.Nothing generally to do with Marius.

    The second one is victory placing a wreath on a trophy....not a person. Look at it closely, it is most definitely not intended to be a real person she is crowning.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
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  4. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    However, the kid riding the horses is rather rare.
    C. Marius with son, Tribute and Consul, c. 101 BC, C. Fundanius,
    Helmeted head of Roma right, dot E behind. / Q Marius (?) in quadriga right,
    boy on horse before him, C FVNDAN in exergue. Fundania1; C326/1.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2015
  5. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Your second coin was struck c. 119BC. Here is my example:
    M FURIUS Lf PHILUS.jpg
    M FURIUS Lf PHILUS ROMAN REPUBLIC
    AR Denarius
    OBVERSE: Laureate head of Janus; M•FOVRI•L•F around
    REVERSE: Roma standing left erecting trophy, gallic arms around, ROMA to right, PHLI in ex.
    Struck at Rome, 119 BC
    3.81g, 18.35mm
    Crawford 281/1, Syd 529, BMCRR (Italy) 555, Furia 18
     
  6. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Wow Bing, so that really is Marius? I never would have guessed as the coin does not show the air bags that he had underneath his eyebrows. I'm surprised he could even see where he was going. Just look at a surviving bust of the man.
     
  7. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    The example doesn't even show the face of the charioteer, but I suppose it is him.
     
  8. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    Even in such low resolution, I would have expected to see the airbags. That man had some serious eyebrow sagging. ;)
     
  9. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    I do not have an example of the first coin but I know it is a Crawford 326/1, struck in 101 BC and likely refers to the victories over the Teutones, Cimbri and Ambrones. Many of the types of this time period circa 100 BC have similar reverses that show triumphs, victory, etc. Here is one from my collection from 100 BC that has victory and likely refers to these victories as well:
    PServiliusMFRullusDenarius.jpg
    Roman Republic AR Denarius(3.83g, 19mm), Publius Servilius M. F. Rullus, 100 BC. Bust of Minerva left, wearing Corinthian helmet and aegis; behind, RVLLI upward. Border of dots. / Victory in biga right, holding palm-branch in left hand and reins in right hand; below P; in ex., P • SERVILI • M • F. Border of dots. Crawford 328/1. RSC Servilia 14


    Now as for the second, as far as I know, Marius had no role(or at least no significant role) in the victories that i seemingly refers to. See below for a picture of my example and a description copied-and-pasted from the first time I shared this coin:

    minecombined.JPG
    This denarius was struck in 119 BC under the moneyer Marcus Furius Lucii filius Philus. The obverse features Janus, the two-faced god of beginnings and endings, transitions, gates, doorways and passages. His two faces look both forwards towards the future and back towards the past. This obverse design was featured prominently on the early Republican quadrigati but only appears on a few denarii. The reverse features Roma crowning a trophy, surrounded by two Gallic shields and two carnyces, the traditional Gallic war-horn. The reverse likely refers to the Roman victories over the Gallic tribes of the Allobroges and Arveni in 121 BC under Quintus Fabius Maximus and Cnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus.

    AR Denarius(19mm, 3.86g). Marcus Furius Lucii filius Philus, moneyer, 119 BC, Rome mint. Laureate head of Janus;around, M·FOVRI·L·F, Border of dots. / Roma (wearing Corinthian helmet) standing left, holding sceptre in left hand and crowning trophy with right hand; above, star; behind, ROMA upwards; the trophy is surmounted by a helmet in the form of a boar's head and flanked by a carnyx and shield on each side; in exergue, (PHI)LI. Crawford 281/1, Sydenham 529, RSC Furia 18, BMCRR (Italy) 555
     
  10. brassnautilus

    brassnautilus Well-Known Member

    Was the coin struck in 110BC?
    I think Marius assumed command at a later date, and it was closer to 100 BC when they finally won the teutone war.
     
  11. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    If you ever get tired of that second one, I'll be happy to take it off your hands :)
     
  12. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    One of these days I'll probably upgrade it and sell this one. I really like the design and it's one of the few that I could really see myself going all out and spending a few months worth of budget to upgrade to a gEF or FDC example of if the opportunity presented itself.
     
  13. brassnautilus

    brassnautilus Well-Known Member

    red spork's date on the first coin makes sense. So does the 119BC date for gallic war. That was still very early in marius' political career.

    I had always thought the 1st one is kinda rare for a quadriga RR denarius, but it's a good thing to know it actually was designated to that particular triumph.

    Weren't there just 2 janis head denarius? That one and the one with a boat?
    Earlier quadrigatus had a different depiction of janis too, without beard.
     
  14. brassnautilus

    brassnautilus Well-Known Member

    was there other RR denarius with Janus head?
    this one also had no beard, some people say it's dioscuri?
    [​IMG]
     
  15. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    I believe you are correct about there only being 2 Janus denarii. That's what I thought when I was writing that but I was too lazy to look it up so I decided to not be specific, but I only know of two. And yeah, on the quadrigati and the denarius you posted Janus is always pictured without a beard.
     
  16. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    Those are both sweet OP-coins, brassnautilus (congrats)

    Yah, I seldom pass-up an opportunity to post my baby ...


    ancient2face.jpg ancient2faceb.jpg
     
  17. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I haven't yet found a direct source, but here are other Fundanius denarii with auction descriptions noting the association with Marius:

    http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=75869
    "The reverse shows Marius as triumphator in the quadriga. He holds sceptre and laurel branch. On one of the horses rides his son. The children of the triumphator were - according to tradition - allowed to share the triumph of their father. The Q above refers to the office as quaestor the mintmaster held while minting these coins."

    http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=326
    "Refers to Marius triumph after victories over the Cimbri and Teutones. The rider on the near horse is Marius's son, at that time eight years old."

    CNG's catalogers are less certain, with some listings saying, "...Marius (?) in walking quadriga right; youth on nearest horse" and others " Triumphator in quadriga right, holding [scepter] and laurel branch; a youth riding the nearest horse, holding laurel branch".
     
  18. brassnautilus

    brassnautilus Well-Known Member

    thanks TIF.
    No one gave source of the quote (that it was Marius and his son and not someone else). The date of 101BC does correspond to marius' parade though, so unless there were other major victory that year (which I'm not aware of) then I see no reason to doubt it.


    BTW, there's another denarius with janiform red_spork. It looked like a quadrigatus but 1/2 the weight. I can't remember the moneyer's name, but it was from 200BC or something, early and pretty rare IIRC.
     
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  19. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    I think you're thinking of the half quadrigatus. I knew of that one but it's pre-denarius. As far as actual denarii I believe there are only two
     
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  20. red_spork

    red_spork Triumvir monetalis

    As far as the identity of the triumphator, here is what Crawford says in "Roman Republic Coinage"(Note that "1" refers to the denarius, "2" refers to the quinarius of this same moneyer):

    "The Gallic carnyx(for which see on no 281) on 2 makes the reverse type as a whole a clear reference to Marius' victories over the Cimbri and Teutones; the triumphator on 1 may therefore perhaps be regarded as Marius himself, the rider on the near horse as Marius' son, now aged 8(cf. W. Ehlers, RE viiA, 508; compare no. 402)"

    I don't have access to the work by Ehlers but the "281" referenced is the denarius with Janus that is posted above
     
  21. brassnautilus

    brassnautilus Well-Known Member

    thanks again man. Now I gotta find one with the carnyx....

    is the thingy at base of the trophy on the 2nd coin a carnyx also? Since that was also commemorating a victory over gallic people, some 10 years prior.
     
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