Are the serifs not split ?Double Die or MD?

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by AshDDOClash1, Mar 26, 2019.

  1. AshDDOClash1

    AshDDOClash1 New Member

    37363A42-BFF1-4A7C-8BE9-457DDF413969.jpeg 87EA4A17-5176-4D4D-84FF-99387DE6371D.jpeg 0BF53E7D-93DC-48BE-85AE-8A9F584B5986.jpeg 98EBC4F1-4CEB-4463-8621-89137EC5B887.jpeg 40F0395A-08C7-405B-9956-D0C4444CDFC9.jpeg 1F637D0D-5393-4245-97F6-60022050526E.jpeg 3E6164C2-9DD6-4115-AA9B-B22DCA293F1C.jpeg 37363A42-BFF1-4A7C-8BE9-457DDF413969.jpeg 89F724B6-D8D4-4142-9F52-578CF452F81A.jpeg Is there any situation where you can have Die Deterioration, producing M.D while also producing genuine doubling?
    Thank you all for commenting. Im fairly new, but very serious and love the Lincoln cent. So this is the second 2018 D. I have many questions , sorry, but a closed mouth dont get fed. And there is a lot of good food here. Thanks for the help and the welcome! 89F724B6-D8D4-4142-9F52-578CF452F81A.jpeg
     

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  3. paddyman98

    paddyman98 I'm a professional expert in specializing! Supporter

    Looks like Just DDD - Die Deterioration Doubling IMHO
     
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  4. MeowtheKitty

    MeowtheKitty Well-Known Member

    Meow has also noticed that very shiny coins can produce reflections of the letters and numbers next to them making them appear doubled some times. So Meow looks at the coin at different angles, and angles of light. And a lot of times the doubling disappears, as is was just a reflection.
     
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  5. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Damaging Coins Daily

    There's multiple ways that metal fatigues, wears out, etc.
    But, look at one of your pictures
    upload_2019-3-26_9-49-47.png

    you can see the "expanded" section surrounding the letter.

    Generically speaking, a "standard" Double Die is when the hub is pressed back on to the die not quite straight on and creates an "offset doubling" So the "added" letter would be offset, not expanding the entire circumference of a letter (there are 8 categories of DD though).

    In this specific case, as the die's inset "letter" sharp, 90 degree edges wear, they expand around the circumference. So Die Deterioration in this case.

    The metal die strikes against hundreds of thousands of planchets. Each planchet is new, and if you were able to grab *all* the coins from one set of dies, you could technically put them in order of the first batch to the last batch struck by the die by how "early die" sharp and detailed the image is, to how "late die" soft and DDD the image gets.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  6. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Damaging Coins Daily

    there were some posters here who were using light (and out of focus images) to try and convince ppl that they had a new found DD through their YouTube videos.
     
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  7. Petercoin

    Petercoin Active Member

    Just like to say I agree with you wholeheartedly I've done it so many times and thought I had some DD special, but then went you move the coin around and look at it in different angles, you can see that it's just a regular struck coin with the shiny bright luster in the beautiful coin
     
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  8. Fallguy

    Fallguy Active Member

    I couldn't agree more! I was trying to do a review of a batch of quarters by using a hi-res scanner that I had bought specifically for that purpose. When I looked at the output I said, "Wow!" as there seemed to be a number of DDOs. However, when I looked at them with my 7X I couldn't find anything. So I went back and noticed that the Quarters that appeared doubled on the scanner were those at the edges where the light was casting shadows. BTW, I have seen the same thing under larger scope; turn the coin a bit and you see it, turn it a little more and it's gone! (I need better lighting for the scope, that's for sure).

    However, I not sure, at this time, that I would throw the baby out with the bathwater in the instant case; something must have caught the OPs eye to lead him to take the photos. What I'd like to see are some more shot's (pulled back just a smidge and not blown-up so much so as to eliminate the pixilation), from a number of different angles and more even/subdued lighting (as the MeowtheKitty has already mentioned). Then maybe I would feel comfortable (though I guess what I feel is really not important) in agreeing with everyone else that the coin is not displaying true Die Doubling. Semper Fidelis
     
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  9. KarlB

    KarlB Active Member

    Master Hub, to Master Die, to Working Hubs, to Working Dies?

    So, a doubled Die is created when the Working Hub is miss-aligned for a subsequent impression to the Working Die?
     
  10. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Damaging Coins Daily

    there's 8 types of "normal" Doubled Dies ...
    http://www.error-ref.com/doubled-dies/

    excerpt top summary:
    Definition: A doubled die (hub doubling) is caused by a misalignment or a mismatch between a working hub and a working die. The misalignment or mismatch occurs between a first and subsequent hubbing or sometimes in the course of a single hubbing. Misalignments can occur along three orthogonal planes and three orthogonal axes. Doubled dies that are the result of a misalignment are variously characterized as rotated, offset, pivoted, or tilted. Doubled dies that are the result of a design mismatch are variously characterized as “distended”, “distorted”, “modified” and “design hub doubling”. A total of eight classes are recognized.

    ******
    There's also Master Die Doubling
    http://www.error-ref.com/master-die-doubling/
    Master Die Doubling
    Master die doubling resembles a minor doubled die (hub doubling), but instead of being restricted to a single working die, it appears on many working dies. The wide distribution of identical doubling can be traced to hub doubling affecting the master die. The master die is the template from which many working dies are generated.

    When the master hub is pressed into the presumptive master die, several squeezes are required to fully transfer the images. Any shift in position between the master hub and the master die can result in doubling. The shift can occur between hubbings or even during a single squeeze.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
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  11. Clawcoins

    Clawcoins Damaging Coins Daily

    also, this image
    upload_2019-3-26_11-57-56.png

    @AshDDOClash1 is a reason you *ALWAYS* want to show the *ENTIRE* coin obverse and reverse.

    For instance what I see could be the start of a Ridge Ring, which is totally indicative of Deterioration. This could be shown in your above picture by the striations between and through the letters in a wide line which is much more obvious if the entire face of the coin is shown. Such as you can see in this example:
    upload_2019-3-26_11-59-50.png

    with an example on the obverse and reverse.
    upload_2019-3-26_12-2-27.png
    and sometimes the reverse anvil die gets overused too
    upload_2019-3-26_12-3-25.png
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
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  12. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    If the misalignment occurs between the Master Hub and the Master Die, then every working die would be affected.

    Chris
     
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  13. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Yes master
     
  14. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    You forgot to get on your knees and bow your head!

    Chris:woot:
     
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