Are Greysheet Prices Accurate?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Argenteus Fossil, Oct 20, 2014.

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  1. C G Memminger

    C G Memminger Active Member

    The sheets are tools, nothing more. I think they are fairly accurate for most of the coins reported. My biggest complaint is that the sheets do not break out certain varieties of die pairing variations. For example, consider the 1880-CC Morgan. Sheet will give bid/ask only for the 80-CC and the 80-CC R78. They do not report for the 80/79 overstrike (VAM 4), the 8/7 overstrikes (VAM 5, 6, 7 and 7A). Check eBay results for these coins. These are all Top 100 VAMS, and absolutely command premiums over other die pairings.

    Dealers are merchants, and like most merchants, they tend to buy at one price (wholesale) and sell at a higher price. Some coins yield thin margins, so dealers need to move a lot of them. Some coins are tough sells, and will sit in inventory for months and months. A dealer will naturally want a higher spread on these guys.

    Like any other profession, there are reputable dealers and rapscallions. I deal with some excellent people and have a list of jerks I with whom I will not do business.

    The biggest show in my area is The Houston Money Show in December. I've had a table there 2010-2013. Show opens to public at 1pm on Thursday. In the 2-3 hour span of time before the doors open, the volume of dealer-dealer transactions would boggle your mind. These transactions go off at or a little back of sheet. In that 3 hour span, I will do as much biz as I will do over the next 3 days with the public.

    As a buyer, you want to be sniffing around eBay, craigslist, estate sales. The more people who know you trade coins, the better. My business card (I'm a lawyer) includes "Rare Coin & Currency Dealer." I LOVE it when a colleague refers me a client neding to unload a box full of goodies!!
     
    C G Memminger, Oct 21, 2014
    #21 + Quote Reply
    Lueds likes this.
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  3. Argenteus Fossil

    Argenteus Fossil Active Member

    Not all dealers, but to say that there aren't dealers this is true of is naïve.
     
    Argenteus Fossil, Oct 21, 2014
    #22 + Quote Reply
  4. Argenteus Fossil

    Argenteus Fossil Active Member

    Very good illustrations here.

    I definitely understand that all the 1795 large cents in AG03 are not "worth $70" exactly. I was asking what the spread was. I was wondering if the nicer AG03's sell for $100 and the uglies go for $50, or is the spread much, much larger.

    The feedback from Amanda showed what the spread was and now looking back that dealer in my scenario was probably being honest. I also did not take in account die varieties as much as I probably should although there was not one noted or spoken of in my scenario.

    For the record for everyone, I know my threads often seem as though they are slanted against dealers, I am not anti-dealer. In fact, through college I worked for a dealer! I only discuss situations (often negative) and try to grasp a better understanding of why things went the way they did in that scenario. I am trying to see things through a different lens. I feel sometimes I get a short reply back that says something along the lines of "you don't deserve the prices dealers get". I feel this is somebody that is either A) taking personal offense to something and is having a knee-jerk reaction or B) one of the unscrupulous dealers (liars don't like being called liars).
     
    Argenteus Fossil, Oct 21, 2014
    #23 + Quote Reply
    Amanda Varner likes this.
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Your reaction is not uncommon. In fact it is all too common ! A great many people react in a negative way when they have a situation like you described. But it is almost always because those people do not understand or know the coin market.

    There are lots and lots of good dealers out there. Lots of bad ones too. But if you yourself don't know what you are doing then it is very difficult and sometimes almost impossible to tell one from the other.

    Coin collecting is not a hobby for the uneducated and/or inexperienced.

    edit - I have said countless times that if a collector gets taken advantage of, or downright ripped off, it is NOT the dealers fault. It is the collectors own fault because he does not know what he is doing. If he did, it could never happen. People are responsible for their own actions - not somebody else.

    Nobody, but nobody, can EVER take advantage of you unless you yourself let them do so.
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 21, 2014
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. C G Memminger

    C G Memminger Active Member

    GDJMSP: AMEN!!

    Know Thy Coin!!
     
    C G Memminger, Oct 21, 2014
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. Argenteus Fossil

    Argenteus Fossil Active Member

    This is almost a catch-22. How can you become experienced without doing the hobby in the first place? Well, I consider myself as learning. I come here with my experiences and leave each time with a better understanding or a little different perspective. I can read all my books 1000 times, but until I have an actual experience (such as this) it doesn't really do me any good.
     
    Argenteus Fossil, Oct 21, 2014
    #26 + Quote Reply
    Amanda Varner likes this.
  8. C G Memminger

    C G Memminger Active Member

    Fossil: get a mentor. Your learning curve is vertical. Pick a coin group, study it, learn it, live it..

    I consider myself an expert in 1880-CC Morgans. I immersed myself in the coin a few years back.
     
    C G Memminger, Oct 21, 2014
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. C G Memminger

    C G Memminger Active Member

    When you master one coin group, move to another group that is of interest to you. After studying the 1880-CC Morgan, I moved to the 1893-S Morgan. A very easy coin to master, as there are only two die pairings, and the obverse on every one of them came from the same die. Learn the markers, and you'll never be cheated.
     
    C G Memminger, Oct 21, 2014
    #28 + Quote Reply
  10. Argenteus Fossil

    Argenteus Fossil Active Member

    Can you explain what this means? What exactly do you mean by "vertical"?
     
    Argenteus Fossil, Oct 22, 2014
    #29 + Quote Reply
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Easy answer, only buy coins from trusted and respected dealers. This is the single best piece of advice you will ever get regarding numismatics. So you would do well to remember it. Trusted and respected dealers are not going to even try to take advantage of you, let alone rip you off. Doing this allows you to continue your study and learning and yet buy coins to gain experience at the same time.

    Also, go to every coin show you can, and make an effort of doing it. The true value of coin shows is what one can learn, the experience you can gain, merely from being there. And that is without ever buying a coin at the show.

    While at coin shows look at all of the coins, especially the ones you are not interested in for your collection. This exposes you to new, different coins, and may even expand your horizons. Examine and study the coins, make your own grade estimates and compare that to what the coin is graded, whether by a TPG or the dealer, and ask about the prices. This one exercise alone teaches you a ton ! You not only learn how the TPGs grade certain coins, you also learn how a given dealer grades his raw coins, and how both groups are priced. And that will help you immensely when it comes to sorting out the good dealers from the not so good. As well as picking out the coins you want for your collection.

    You see, a lot of people think that when they go to a coin show that they are only there to look for coins for their collections. They'll stroll around looking for 1 or 2 or maybe a half dozen different coins, never even glancing at anything else. And that is a huge mistake for by doing so they bypass all of the knowledge and experience they would gain by doing otherwise.

    Coin shows are the colleges, the universities of numismatics. The most knowledgeable people in the world on the subject gather at them. They also teach at them, in both formal and informal settings. In other words, many coin shows hold seminars (formal) where a speaker will give a lecture on a given subject. But there some of the most detailed and helpful stuff takes place at the dealer tables in the form of ordinary conversations (informal). And all you have to do to is listen, and maybe even enter into the conversation, in order to gain valuable knowledge and experience.

    Going to coin shows also allows you to form the beginnings of relationships, maybe even friendships with these "professors of numismatics". Just by being there they will see you, remember your face the next time you see them, as you will theirs. This allows future meetings and conversations to become more involved, more helpful to you in furthering your education.

    That is how you gain experience ;)
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 22, 2014
    #30 + Quote Reply
    Argenteus Fossil likes this.
  12. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Also realize that no matter how much experience you have or gain, from time to time you will err and make a bad buy. No one gets it right EVERY time. Youhave to learn to accept that and just do your best to learn as much as you can so those times are few and far between.
     
    Conder101, Oct 22, 2014
    #31 + Quote Reply
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