Are fantasy dated coins considered counterfeit?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Walter1969, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    @BooksB4Coins MY thing is there is much more to the story than what you pasted and copied. And the context of which the words above were said, is completely misconstrued. Each of us can read the copied text above and come to a conclusion, the whole text written would be much more appropriate.
     
    baseball21 likes this.
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  3. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    Yet still doesn't change the overriding fact that the statement was made. Spin as you want, but fact are facts. Also, and I hate to break it to you, but just because you may like his blatant copying, this doesn't mean Mr. Carr is magically immune from the very standards he applies to others. Perhaps you missed it, but the mere mention of standards is what started this.

    Oh, and since you wish to speak of context and coming to a conclusion, perhaps you should dig up the many excuses he's made claiming his own dies perfectly legal and compare, or simply see how he has often reacted to the suggestion his dies are not in compliance (hint, hint). After all, this would be the "appropriate" thing to do, especially for someone promoting doing just that.
     
    Paddy54 likes this.
  4. dcarr

    dcarr Mint-Master

    .
    Anyone interested in the facts, please see my post #40 in this thread
    (at the bottom of Page 2).
    .
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
  5. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    I believe if one checks the sales of such items in Canada is illegal. If you check EBAY CA. You'll find Dan Carr items for sale....however none are from Canadian sellers. I know of a Canadian his first name is Mike screen name was Fake Canada
    Fought in Canadian Parliament to ban all such items for sale in Canada unless they are marked clearly "COPY"!
    I give Mike a ton of credit on his efforts to maintain the hobby in Canada.
    I know he spent many hours ,days,months to lobby the Canadian government and citizens to protect their coins and currency.
    His efforts has reduced fake ,fantasy, Chineese products from sale on internet sales,as well else where...within the boundries of Canada. "Unless they are marked COPY"! Just one other thing that Canada does very well.... if it isn't issued by a legitimate country goverment backed by said goverment it is banned as a fake!
     
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  6. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Canada has nothing to do with anything for the conversation
     
  7. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    Canada might not be tied directly to this conversation, but it suggests what can be done with a concerted lobbying effort, clear rules and a true enforcement effort, none of which have occurred in the US.

    (Full disclosure: I do own several D. Carr fantasy dates)
     
  8. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector


    Oh it is directly linked to this conversation..... to those of us who find such coins to be counterfeit....however I am unaware of the post that followed mine.... other than your's....as whom ever it was ...voice has No Merrit to me, as that person is on iggy ,and will remain on such for their constant diarrhea of the mouth within this forum.
    But my post does give merrit to the cause of protection of not only this hobby ,but also those citizen's who may be fooled by such coins offered for sale.
    The Canadians don't play..... the maximum jail time for such offence 14 years!
     
  9. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Lol awww your fees fees got hurt I see.

    Canada's laws have absolutely no barring on the United States. Or would you argue that we should adopt sharia law as well because other countries use it?

    As far as why Canada doesn't have as many counterfeits coming in it's really quite simple, their economy is a fraction of the size of the United States. The dollar is worth more, there are far more potential consumers, shipping is cheaper and more routes into the country ect. It's basic economics and has nothing to do with that law, if you flipped the size of the economies then the target would be flipped as well.

    People over seas don't care if they would get sentenced to jail in a country they will never set foot in nor will they ever be extradited too
     
  10. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    I still have faith that it's possible to have such discussions without the passive-aggressive side commentary. One day maybe :angelic:
     
    Paul M. and baseball21 like this.
  11. dcarr

    dcarr Mint-Master

    I was under the impression that replicas of actual Canadian coins are not allowed in Canada, in any form, even if they are marked "COPY" or similar.
     
  12. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    That may be correct! I know Mike spent many a day lobbying against any items he felt were a threat to the hobby as well as the citizens of Canada.
     
  13. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    First, you're no Andy Warhol, sir, and not on your best day, in your grandest delusions, or even wildest dreams. You're no more comparable to him than anyone using modern technology and machinery to exactingly copy the work of more talented others, including the Chinese you find so reprehensible. No one is going to make movies about you or pay millions for your work, ever. Simply because Warhol took a visual of the commonplace and turned it into arguable "art" and is remotely similar to your use of modern technology to exactingly copy, this doesn't make the comparison valid nor even remotely reasonable. Suggesting as much is no different from some schmo buying a pro-level camera to shoot on auto mode while comparing himself to, say, Ansel Adams. Just because some do seem to think as much, this doesn't make it any less laughable.

    If you're capable of saying/admitting that it "appears" another producer's dies are/were "illegal", then you are also capable of applying the same to yours, but that's not what happens during these little dances, is it? Instead we end up talking about painted corvettes, superchargers, Andy Warhol, or whatever other deflective ridiculousness you can muster to excuse both your copying and refusal to simply and clearly identify your products in a manner that would make them easily recognizable to the layman. It's not that I blame you as it surely gets expensive having to pay for all of your fine toys, but no amount of spin changes the fact that you refuse to apply to yourself what you insist upon applying to others, and has been shown time and time again in these threads. This also goes directly to what started this little dance renewed, and is your open embrace of a double standard.

    Still, the second part of the referenced post was possibly the most telling and simply because it, especially the "illegal molds" part and in a nutshell, explains why you're so willing to skirt what the HPA makes quite clear as well as what was addressed earlier by Blissskr. From the best I can tell, said "illegal molds" are not illegal in China where they're produced and used. However, unless the individual has been granted "lawful authority" to make and/or possess them, it certainly seems they are in the US, including Colorado. Funny how that works, isn't it?
     
  14. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    Or maybe, just maybe, they should dig up the many past claims you've made here regarding YOUR dies and then compare to statements made in the linked thread. All one need do is to apply even the most modest level of objectivity in order to see the rather obvious problem.
     
  15. Mainebill

    Mainebill Wild Bill

    Yes they’re counterfeit and overstrikes are counterfeit too to me they’re no different than the Chinese fakes other than they’re made of real coins fake and more fake. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again and yes I think both are bad for the business
     
  16. dcarr

    dcarr Mint-Master

    Fortunately, I am not actually like Andy Warhol. But the comparison of his Campbell Soup label paintings to over-strike coins is appropriate.

    As I previously and clearly wrote: it may seem like Gallery Mint dies and the like are illegal, but they are not. That is what I thought in 2007 and that is what I think now. Molds of coins are illegal if they are used for fraudulent purposes.

    As for the rest of it, we have been over it all before, of course. You seem strangely obsessed with the situation. Andy Warhol had his haters also. I hope you are not turning into a sort of Valerie Solanas.
     
  17. Chiefbullsit

    Chiefbullsit CRAZY HORSE

    Can't wait to get my 1934 Saint Gaudens, ANACS MS69.


    image001.jpg
     
    Paul M., TopcatCoin, imrich and 2 others like this.
  18. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    I don't have an entry in what's believed to be a "dog and pony" show, discussing/arguing matters that have already seemingly been adjudicated. As a "Devils Advocate", I would pose a question about a believed more severe industry practice.

    Should "copy" be placed on "over-graded" certified coins encapsulated in an era where there's violation of the only known complete publicly published grading standard?

    Should a "corroded" coin, that might normally meet the standard of a lower grade at the time of encapsulation, be allowed a "Gem" grade, without a "copy" stamp?

    Does the product/coin meet the definition of "counterfeit"?

    Just "Food For Thought" to feed those seemingly chewing on what appears to be digested "Fare".

    I apologize in advance if anyone is offended by what might be considered inappropriate post placement?

    JMHO
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  19. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    Huh? Copy = not authentic, fake, counterfeit, the grade doesn’t matter.
     
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  20. dcarr

    dcarr Mint-Master

    I think what imrich is trying to say is that over-graded coins are often as much a threat (if not more) to a novice coin buyer's financial condition than non-genuine coins ?
     
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  21. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    How can an overgraded coin be as much a threat than a fake? It can’t get any worse than buying a counterfeit (believing it is authentic). And I am not taking about fantasy dates, but counterfeits which were made to fool collectors.
     
    John Skelton likes this.
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