Are fantasy dated coins considered counterfeit?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Walter1969, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. dcarr

    dcarr Mint-Master

    Chinese "1964" Peace dollars and large numbers of counterfeits existed in the marketplace before I ever over-struck any coins.
     
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  3. Blissskr

    Blissskr Well-Known Member

    Yes sure, but as usual it's always deflection with you on what everyone else is doing or has done. Regardless if you want to acknowledge it or not your coins popularity has led to a spike in many more such 'fantasy' date coins being produced and offered into the market.
     
  4. Blissskr

    Blissskr Well-Known Member

    And again that pesky precedent FTC cases opinion doesn't agree with you, most law is designed to protect those who don't know any better.

    FTCdecisioncoins.png
     
    Paddy54 likes this.
  5. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    You’re giving him far to much credit if you actually believe he’s the reason why they’ve spiked. I guess he’s responsible for the spike in all the stuff he’s never done as well?
     
    imrich likes this.
  6. Blissskr

    Blissskr Well-Known Member

    Yes actually, the more others see him continuing to push the limits with no repercussions and profiting off it. The more likely it is we see others popping up with copycat type products even if not the same exact coinage being done.
     
  7. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    Does anyone believe this debate will ever go anywhere?

    If you like Carr’s stuff, buy it. If you don’t, don’t buy it.

    There are more important things to worry about in our hobby.
     
  8. CoinCorgi

    CoinCorgi Derp, derp, derp!

    If you think it's counterfeit, report it. Over and over again until you get what you want.
     
  9. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    You’re REALLY REALLY reaching with that. There has never been any chance of repercussions for the Chinese they don’t care 1 bit about Dan
     
  10. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    And while we’re at it, I’m sure Carr’s fantasy dates are responsible for the recent explosion in the number of gonorrhea cases.
     
  11. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

    Any and ALL counterfeits that are NOT clearly marked copy are bad for this hobby.
    Idc what date or mm it has.


    In 10-20 years when this hobby goes by the wayside, i will consider all of you Carr supporters just as much the problem as the counterfeits themselves.
     
  12. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    Nah that was me. My bad :(
     
  13. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    The hobby isn’t going anywhere
     
  14. dcarr

    dcarr Mint-Master

    My first over-strikes came out in 2010. Numerous Chinese "fantasy" coins were in the market prior to that. Nobody else has done any fantasy-date over-strikes before that or since.

    I suppose you'd like to blame me for this, but it occurred in 2009 (large quantities of mutilated counterfeit US coins from China were sold to the US Mint via their mutilated coin redemption program): http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2015/03/feds_uncover_scheme_to_defraud_us_mint_out_of_54m.html

    So counterfeiting (and associated fraud) was a major problem prior to 2010. But those engaged in fraud do sometimes run into trouble.

    Fraudulent intent is the key element, even if you choose to dismiss it.
     
    Paul M. and Dave Waterstraat like this.
  15. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    Are you capable of anything beyond presenting ridiculously asinine and self-serving nonsense wholly devoid of basic logic or even just stay in the proper context?

    Although the intellectually honest already know this is asking too much, let's try to be honest here, shall we? Your choice of planchet material is nothing other than convenience as well as self-serving in that it, by design, is nothing but an excuse. Why not be honest and simply admit the obvious as well as the fact that it's a cop out? You're exploiting a loophole and that's great, but the same must go for others now or in the future. If okay for you it must therefore be the same for anyone and everyone else, and was the entire point.
     
    Paddy54 likes this.
  16. dcarr

    dcarr Mint-Master

    The distinction is between making a completely "new" coin versus taking an existing genuine coin and altering it (without fraudulent intent). You can call that distinction whatever you want, but it still exists nonetheless, and others can have a different view than what you posted above.
     
  17. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    I didn't suggest they couldn't, but hypocrisy is hypocrisy. You know, kind of like openly stating one's believe that another mint's dies are "illegal" while making whatever lame excuse imaginable for his own.
     
    Paddy54 likes this.
  18. dcarr

    dcarr Mint-Master

    What are you talking about ?
    Cite the specific statement about another mint's dies being "illegal".
     
  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    No
     
  20. BooksB4Coins

    BooksB4Coins Newbieus Sempiterna

    You know EXACTLY what I'm talking about and simply because we've done this dance before. Of course it may be hard for some to remember due to all the asinine comparisons to Andy Warhol, claims the entirety of China incapable of producing a CNC equal to yours, and the mountain of other ridiculousness, but you most certainly remember.

    The exact statement, made on CU on July 28, 2007 at 11:19am, is below....

    "The Gallery Mint's final products are in compliance with the law.
    But it appears that the act of making the dies they use is illegal.


    However, nobody in the government seems to care about all of the fake legal-tender US dollar coins from China on eBay.
    None of them say "Copy" and they are all made from "illegal" molds."

    The above, sir, is perhaps the most true statement I've seen you make, ever, and explains exactly why you're willing to skirt what the HPA makes very clear.
     
    micbraun and Paddy54 like this.
  21. dcarr

    dcarr Mint-Master

    There is your favorite word again.

    The Andy Warhol comparison is valid. Most of the Chinese makes are not of very high quality in the die engraving or workmanship. China is certainly capable of making high-quality items. Several years ago that was not the case for many things. The source of the current batch of high-quality counterfeits is unknown. Whoever is making them doesn't want that to be known. It could be China.

    Anyway, the statement you quoted from 2007 includes the qualifier "appears". That does not mean that I agree with the statement. My purpose in that post was to point out the incongruity in existing law and solicit some comments on it.

    Later in that same discussion someone else posted the following:
    And on July 28 2007 I responded to that specific comment:
    So, you can see that at the time (2007) I did NOT actually think that Gallery Mint dies were illegal.

    Here is a link to that CU Forum discussion from 2007:
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/6638208#Comment_6638208 .
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
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