Are Coin Dealers Irrelevant?

Sure, dealers are irrelevant for telling us what the latest hot coin is.

But there are a lot of dealers and they are presumably making money. So they must be providing some kind of service.

 

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Sir, any dealer who would EVER refuse to take back a coin proven fake is not a good coin dealer. If they say "all sales are final" ask them about if the coin is fake. If they say no returns, then simply refuse to buy from them. I have done so. There is a dealer at shows around here who told me that. I asked him "what about fakes" and he said it didn't matter. So, I just walked away and know to never even look at whatever he has for sale. Yes, I do know there are dealers like that, all we can do is refuse to buy and they will go away.

 

I’m not saying all dealers are dishonest, yet many are. Relying on a dealer’s opinion, while he’s trying to sell you a coin, is simply a conflict of interest, that should heeded.

Do my opinions about dealers have anything to do with my opinions about moderns? Only minimally, as they apply to classics as well. I do believe the traditional old time dealers or any dealer for that matter will promote and attempt to sell you what they have and many old time dealers have large inventories of classics.

I'm not saying classics are bad, the market is for classics as well as moderns and that market has/is moving to the internet. I have a client that's looking for a certified uncirculated 1856 FEC. Guess how many of those are at B&M's or shows in my area? Right, zero. Where am I going to find him one? Right, online at Heritage. BTW, this client is an "Old Timer" who doesn't even own a computer - most of my clients are on the net.

 

Ever been to a big coin show, Statequarterguy? You'll meet some of the finest dealers in the United States. Most of whom have B&M shops.

 

I used to go to the Santa Clara, CA show every year for many years. Yes, some fine dealers there, yet also some of the biggest snakes you'll ever meet. Try this the next time you want to evaluate a dealer, pretend you know nothing about coins and ask them what the "Details" label means on a coin he's asking full price for.

 

They can ask whatever they want. You can offer lower or just walk away. Having coins priced higher is not an indicator of honesty.

 

Well, I'll disagree with that! Asking far more than a coin is worth, is fishing for a sucker. To me, that's dishonest.

 

We are closer in agreement than you might think. It seems the class of dealer you hate so much might be the issue. I do not care for them much either. Dealers who try to pawn off damaged coins by quoting greysheet prices, those who overgrade a coin, (even slabs, I hear it all of the time, "its really a 64 in my opinion but NGC was just being conservative saying its a 62"), etc. I even know some dealers who WOULD rip off a little old lady.

So yeah, I know what you are saying. I still say, though, that the core of good dealers are absolutely required for this hobby to function. They will never be supplanted by amateurs on the internet. Sure, the internet might be a place to buy common coins, move some morgan dollars, etc. How many professionals, the type of people who can afford a VF chain cent, do you think have time to troll Ebay all day looking for 5 figure coins? Is Ebay dealers, many of whom know nearly nothing about coins, going to be the next Rick Snow's of the world? If someone's entire collecting experience is modern issues or very low priced coins, maybe Ebay will be their main "dealer", but that does not mean this is applicable to the entire hobby.

As an aside, I keep wondering when the whole Ebay bidiots overpaying for overhyped new coins thing will come to an end. A lot of it started when PM spiked. At some point these people have to be taking a BATH on all of the overpriced coins they have bought. Ebay used to be a cheap market, a place where dealers only sold if they were desperate because prices were so low. I find myself only able to buy very esoteric items there nowadays, since Ebay is literally double the price a good dealer charges for a good coin.

 

Depends on how you determine "worth."

What about coins that haven't been on the market for years? I have a 1927-S PCGS AU58 standing liberty quarter going to the August Heritage sale for the Chicago ANA. The last PCGS graded AU58 one that I can find sold anywhere was Heritage over 3 years ago. That's also the last time PCGS price guide adjusted their value on the coin to $4000. If it sells for $6000, is someone getting ripped off? What if I listed it for $7500 since it has a 90% full head and someone buys it off of eBay and is thrilled with it? Am I dishonest because of my asking price and because the list price is $4000?

 

As an aside, cool coin man! It was my favorite coin to hoard. Because of the geometric price progression, I always thought Fines were undervalued, so bought up, (and hoarded), all VG and F I could ever buy reasonable. Even back then an AU was a rare coin.

 

Apples & oranges. Establishing a price in an auction is far different than lying about the label on a certified coin.

 

Surely you weighed the pros/cons then made a CHOICE to sell the coin yourself. Just because a dealer may have paid you less, this in no way means that you would have been "ripped off" or that he is making a "fortune" off of you or any other collector. You're really comparing apples and oranges in that by selling the coin yourself, you accepted the risks and shouldered the effort to do so whereas had you sold to a dealer, you would have pocketed cash and walked away from any further responsibility.

This is an utterly ridiculous statement and I am sure you know darn well that the same problems with authenticity exist on ebay with coins as well as in many other areas. Countless times each and every day there are coins sold on ebay that are not as described or were misrepresented by the seller in the hopes of earning a higher profit, so let's accept the reality here that while ebay has it's pluses, as with anywhere else, it has it's minuses too.

As for "arguing with a traditional dealer"; if you're afforded the opportunity to view the coin before purchasing (something clearly not an option with ebay) yet expect a no-questions refund, the problem (other than with a proven counterfeit) may not rest with the dealer.

You're right in that the internet can provide a wealth of information, but do you honestly think it all comes from only collectors? Also, just take a look at this board and you'll see that opinions differ from collector to collector, so how can you single out dealers for not always agreeing? As for self interest, it is universal and exists on both sides of the table, sir.

There are all types and levels of collectors, and the same can be said of those that sell or deal in coins. so lumping them together is both foolhardy and wrong. I've had the unfortunate experience of dealing with a few very lowlife collectors who would rob you blind if given the chance, and just as I am sure you would not want to be lumped in with such people, dealers should be afforded the same courtesy.

 

I'm a full-time dealer.

I have also written original articles for collectors that have appeared in Coin World as well as Coin Prices magazines; have contributed on a volunteer basis to the written material in the ANA monthly journal the Numismatist; was one of a small committee or experienced volunteers (collectors and dealers) to write up the definition of coin doctoring for the PNG and I actually produced the draft that was debated by the PNG and voted upon; devoted years to understanding the Reeded Edge half dollar series and then produced the definitive reference book on Reeded Edge half dollars with a collector (Dick Graham) and the book has already sold out of its first printing from 2012 (almost all copies went to dealers); I share my observations and articles on Facebook as well as my website; and I'm one of the original members and/or regular contributors to the NGC, PCGS and CT boards where I have written five-figures worth of posts where I freely share knowledge.

I'm scum.

 

Aww. Poor Tom.

 

Yes, good dealers are required, whether they're on the internet or not. It's much more efficient to operate on the internet and that's where they're moving. Now, the internet allows all to become a dealer, a market maker. There will be good & bad dealers on the net or down the street. I guess the point to this thread is traditional dealers no longer control the market, all those on the net do.

As for professionals finding the time to troll the net, much more efficient for them to do so as well. They can probably view multiple examples of a coin in minutes as opposed to days, weeks, months or years searching for the coin at B&M's or shows, or even taking the time to meet with a dealer that found the coin for them.

 

Nice of you to admit it, to "come out of the closet".

LOL, I didn't say all dealers are dishonest. There are honest and dishonest dealers on the net, at B&M's and shows, so let's not continue with this line.

The point is, where is the market today, where is it headed, and who is controlling it.

 

You both seem to be having a nice heated little chat here, but as its an open forum.............I'll interject.
lets turn it around , I am not clear why you hate, hate, hate sellers who sell Morgans, Pintos and copiers either? Violent objections they most certainly are....You also call them SOB's which is pretty strong too?? I think you have gone a bit too far....
You refer to them as dealers, they probably better describe themselves as sellers of items, which happens to include a few coins. Each to their own, if someone has something to sell who are we/you to hate them for trying to make a buck or two. Buy their items or not, thats the choice, but hate is a strong word for people who you have likely never met and probably do not know the faintest about their personal circumstances or life stories.

 

I hope the OP is wrong because I get wholesale and under prices from my regular dealers. Internet is good for one thing in my mind. RETAIL.

 

No, you're one of the finest dealers I know in my limited experience. You've helped on these boards and you helped me at FUN and I'd trust you at my back any day........

 

Well said! Very Well Said!

Too often Coin Dealers get stereo typed into the mustard stained shirt, over weight, balding, rip off a grandma kinda guys! True, there are some out there that "might" fit this stereo type but the vast majority of coin dealers within the World are the one that actually shoulder the coin industry. They sell to collectors because............... "collectors seek them out".
Come to think of it, a good coin dealer will "work" with a coin collector whereas a lot on eBay coin marketers simply will not.