Are ASEs legal tender?

Discussion in 'Bullion Investing' started by Pilkenton, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. lonegunlawyer

    lonegunlawyer Numismatist Esq.

    Your words are strong, especially based on a "Subway" sign. Lets just look at a fed note. It is legal tender for all debts . . . . Once you order and they prepare the sandwich, I would think a contract has been formed and debt (or promise to pay) for the sandwich incurred. I still believe Subway is obligated to take any payment deemed legal tender by the federal government. Based thereon, I respectfully disagree with you.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest

    to hide this ad.
  3. Zlotych

    Zlotych Member

    This conversation has been brought up before when talking about similar coins. A private business can reject "legal tender" if they wish. Subway doesn't have to take your ase if they don't want to, just like they don't have to take your bag of pennies or your two dollar bills. That is the law, so argue with fact if you wish.
  4. thecoin

    thecoin New Member

    I have mixed feelings, on one hand, it's the same as if subway doesn't want to accept your 100 dollar bill cause they think it's a counterfeit, but on the other hand, that it is deemed legal tender, and if you can't use it to buy something from a buisness or spend it at a bank, how can you possibly spend it?
  5. lonegunlawyer

    lonegunlawyer Numismatist Esq.

    Whether right or wrong, my arguments have some foundation. You cannot argue: "[t]hat is the law . . ." because what is the law. I am I supposed to take your word for it. I do not think so. Who are you that I should take your word?

  6. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    Look, the Subway thing was just an example. I run a business and I know the laws. I can refuse any form of payment I choose. I'm not required to accept anything I don't want. If a patient wanted to pay for his treatment in rolls of cents...I can and would refuse and demand a different form of payment. That is my right. If you don't believe me, try it.
  7. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    Why don't you present a law where it says one must accept any form of "legal tender" as payment. As long as no law exists that says I am required to accept all "legal tender" as payment...I am not required to do so. Since you are the one that is so sure that it must be me a law that says so. If no such law exists, then I am free to do as I wish.
  8. lonegunlawyer

    lonegunlawyer Numismatist Esq.

    The fed note used as an example, which ultimately is law because it is authorized by the federal government, states it is legal tender for all debt . . . . Key word is "all." It is unequivocal; it is mandatory language.

    Can someone truly show me a law stating a party can refuse U.S. legal tender for payment of a debt in this country? If so I will be a believer.

    Now what is legal and what really occurs in the real world may be two different things.
  9. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    You can believe whatever you want to believe. I really don't care. There is no law mandating that one must accept all forms of US currency in payment.
  10. lonegunlawyer

    lonegunlawyer Numismatist Esq.

    Are you sure? What about the language on the fed notes themselves?
  11. fatima

    fatima Junior Member

    You are wrong. Whether you believe it or not isn't relevant.

    "Legal Tender" status does not require private parties to accept it as payment. "Legal Tender" means that it is accepted by "the state" for payment of debts including taxes. In this case "the state" means local, state and federal governments. Beyond that Congress has no constitutional authority to require state issued currency to be used for private payments.

    In the case of the United States, it also means that it can be deposited at a Federal Reserve institution. (currently all banks & credit unions) This is why people voluntarily use legal tender for non-state transactions.

    The Constitution also states that all rights are reserved by the individual unless otherwise stated in the Constitution. Therefore it seems to me that if you don't believe it, then it's up to you to provide the appropriate Constitutional clause or legal statute that says that a person or business must accept "legal tender" as a form of payment.

    Finally, using the Subway example, if they refuse to serve you a tuna melt because they don't like your "legal tender", what is your "debt" to them? Answer, none. In these sorts of arguments, this obvious fact is often ignored.
  12. It upsets me that our goverment can mint a one dollar coin and sell it outright to you and me for 30 plus times its printed face value.
    It should be a 35 dollar coin with that amount printed on the coin so as when and if its used for legal tender the holder of that coin will get the true value that the coin holds..
  13. Added from above post if the mint feels the price of silver will not let them call this a 35 dollar coin because the market moves up and down in value then the coin should have never been minted or it should have been made from the same metals that other modern coins are made from.
    Coin collecting today is like investing in the stockmarket.
    We are buying coins by the value of silver not by their low or high mintages.
    We are paying others to set the value of a coin we like and many if not all are in full suport of it.
  14. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    Tempest In A Teapot

    How about shelving the "Tempest In A Teapot" attitude. I believe we both know the validity of opposing arguments having to do with jurisdictional laws. These laws/precedents can be shown, received with legitimate objection. The ultimate resolution of authority possibly being decided based on a singular word, by the opinion of a singular possibly "turncoat" supreme court judge (e.g. Obamacare or Voter I.D., Justice Roberts?).

    Respectfully, let's agree to disagree in a Civil manner. This venue should be one of fellowship related to matters concerning "CoinTalk". JMHO :thumb:
  15. Tinpot

    Tinpot Well-Known Member

    Why would it upset you? No one is forcing you to buy the coin.

    As to your second paragraph if anyone is actually stupid enough to spend it at face value then that is their problem. The coin is not intended to be used a legal tender, it's a silver bullion coin that's value will always reflect that of the silver market, as it should.
  16. Tinpot

    Tinpot Well-Known Member

    I believe you are correct, I don't think you would have an obligation to pay if they would not take your legal tender as payment (a $50 or $100 bill in this case) no matter what is stated on the door. I.e. their rules do not have precedence over U.S. law
  17. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    I don't understand why you are upset. These coins are designed to be bullion coins...not circulated coins. The face value is irrelevant. I'm not sure if there is a legal requirement for there to be a face value issued on it...but from a use standpoint it doesn't matter. These coins are designed as bullion pieces.
  18. thecoin

    thecoin New Member

    It is a coinwhich means it has to have a face value, it is not a medal, so yes it is mandatory for it to have a face value
  19. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    Is there a legal definition of a "coin?" I honestly don't know. I understand the difference between a coin and a medal to a numismatist...but is there a legal difference and is the face value part of that?
  20. Elapid

    Elapid Member

    I thought this was to limit the taxes on buying ASE's or AGE's. Something about it just being the changing of money gets taxed differently than buying merchandise. I think I was told this in the 70's by a PM and coin dealer that if you buy bullion ie bars as compared to coins you would get taxed more. I know several coin dealers that don't charge tax any of their bullion or coins if it is bought with cash, although I'm not sure that is exactly legal in the governments eye.
  21. lonegunlawyer

    lonegunlawyer Numismatist Esq.

    Oh, fatima, fatima, I have never responded to your responses before. However, now, I will do you the great honor of doing so with a very brief reply.

    First, I am not wrong. I may not be right, but I am only wrong should you prove it. You failed to prove I am wrong. You failed to present evidentiary or legal support necessary to prove your case (sadly far from it - your own flawed logic/thinking is insufficient).

    Second, as stated before, the fed notes state they are legal tender for payment of all debt, public and private (only the state can declare something legal tender). Also, Congress possesses constitutional authority over the money in this country, thus the authority to dictate its use.

    Third, As stated before, once you order and your sandwich is prepared, a contract exists whereby you have promised to pay (you are indebted for the sandwich). Therefore, the presentation of any legal tender is sufficient to fulfill your obligations under the contract.

    This is my last post herein, unless I decide to eat at Subway and pay with a $50.00 or $100.00 bill.

    May you all rest in peace.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page