Ebay: Appollodotos II Tetradrachms - Fake?

Hi Everyone,
New to ancient coin collecting and the forum. I've come across some suspiciously cheap silver tetradrachms on Ebay, attributed to Apollodotos II of Baktria.

There seem to be two types, resembling Bop 3B and Bop 3C from http://wildwinds.com/coins/greece/baktria/kings/apollodotos_II/t.html , but when I compare them to full priced examples, there are a couple of things that lead me to believe they are fakes:

1. Lack of detail, very smooth looking all over
2. Lack of toning, far too silver
3. Lettering on reverse seems too fat
3. Some specimens have strange gunk or corrosion on them - imitation patina?
3. 15-20% of price

The seller has 5 or 6 listed and says he has "a large number of these in stock", seems to specialize in US coins and hasn't distinguished between the two varieties, so possible he himself has been hoodwinked.

As I write this post, the more certain I become that they are fakes, though as I literally have less than 24 hours experience looking at Ancient coins, would be great if someone here with more experience could confirm my suspicions.

Thanks,
Oscar.

Bop 3B:



Bop 3C

 

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They don't look like tetradrachms (9.5 grams) - they look like drachms (2.4 grams). I believe them to be legit.They have been cleaned, but they are fairly common and relatively inexpensive.

EDIT: Let me explain...
1) Flat - yes they have been harshly cleaned they were probably black or crusty when found.
2) Too Silver - They are fairly good silver..and look as such...uber cleaned.

3) They have real remaining crusty- which looks correct.

 

Do you have size and weight for these? They look like drachms to me. I don't know if they're real or not but the lettering looks similar to mine.

 

That's a real one!

 

My mistake, assumed the wildwinds page was definitive and Apollodotos II hadn't issued drachms. Re: common / inexpensive - Other much nicer specimens on ebay are all $200 - $250 AUD (these are $22 AUD). I'm amazed harsh cleaning can do that to a coin!

Sorry, no size and weight, seller doesn't list any info at all in the description, but I will ask.

 

Those are drachms and they look perfectly authentic to me. In fact, those two are pretty nice for the type - in general, they were made quite poorly, in large quantities, and many are not well-preserved. I think they look over-cleaned because of the bright light under which they were photographed.

 

Thanks John, very interesting ... it seems these cheap drachms have raised other members' suspicions in the past too:

... but everyone in this thread seems pretty sure they are authentic. I guess a lot have come on to US market since involvement in Afghanistan.

 

THCoins would be the expert in these drachms (and many other Eastern issues). Also AncientNoob. I defer to their opinions.

 

So @Ancientnoob isn't really a noob ... the plot thickens!

Thanks for your help everyone, much appreciated. I think I'll buy a couple for my first foray, though still interested to see what @THCoins thinks.

 

Ha- nope still a noob...one day I might be able to graduate.

I even have my go to guy - @THCoins !!

 

I also defer to Anoob. They look good to me and if the noob says so, take it to the bank.

 

Nothing to add, other than my coin...

 

Good luck on the great Drachm @Co1ns !

Don't let the @Ancientnoob fool ya! He knows a few things, especially in that area of collecting! He has taught me several things, and has encouraged me to broaden my collecting scopes...

I have a funky one from approx a hundred years earlier in Baktria:

BAKTRIA, Greco-Baktrian Kingdom. Eukratides I Megas. Circa 170-145 BC. Æ Quadruple Unit (22 mm, 7.66 g, 12h). Diademed and draped bust right / The Dioskouroi, holding palm fronds and spears, on horses rearing right; Bopearachchi type 19; SNG ANS 551

 

Thanks @chrsmat71, now that I'm comparing drachms with drachms, the ones I was looking at don't look half as bad.

Looking at VCoins and there is actually quite a few types of these coins with a range of variations of bust style / Athena / monograms ... gather they were minted throughout his reign and at different mints?

@Ancientnoob

Edit: 1 is a Tetra, though there still seems to be at least 7 different drachms.

Nice. I like those ones with the Macedonian helmets - keeping an eye out!

 

As far as can be judged from the photos the two Drachms in the opening post look OK.

With these drachms there seems to be the same situation as with the Drachms of Alexander the Great:
- There are scarce very refined style life-time specimen, which are expensive.
- There are official specimen from mints with less artistic staff.
- There are posthumous specimen, of which no-one knows the official status.
- There are "barbarous" contemporary imitations .
- There are modern fakes.

The third group is the biggest and cheapest. Sometimes these look as if they were based on worn originals. One has to see these in hand to decide.
What is also quite common in Indian silver is that low-quality silver coins are resilvered (after aggressive chemical cleaning) to make them bright and shiny again.

Here another example for comparison:

 

Thanks TH, much appreciated.

Found this on Wikipedia ... the coins with more detailed busts may have been minted by more experienced artisans in the western side of the kindom, whereas the ones with sloppier busts may have been minted by less experienced workers in newly opened eastern Punjab mints:

" The coins of Apollodotus II are of different qualities. Some still have the realistic portraits characteristic of the earlier Indo-Greek coins, and Bopearachchi attributes these series to the western part of his kingdom. Others are badly struck and/or have clumsy and distorted portraits, and these Bopearachchi interprets as belonging to newly opened mints in eastern Punjab, presumably struck by Indian celators with little knowledge of Greek engraving skills. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollodotus_II#Coins_of_Apollodotus_II

I need to do a little more research re: this ruler, that page only mentions him ruling in Punjab, refers to the 'Indo-Greek' kingdom and makes no mention of Baktria or the areas traditionally attributed to Baktria (Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan).

 

While I have nothing to contribute here, I am enjoying the discussion about these coins.

 

The history of the Indo-Greeks is quite complex.
Without trying to be complete:

The dynastic line starts in Bactria, when the local Satraps declare themselves independent of the Seleukids.
During the reign of King Demetrios I the Graeco-Bactrians expanded their territory into India.
After this point in time there were several schisms in the dynasty and there could be a Graeco-Bactrian and a Indo-Greek ruler simultaneous with different relations to each other.
In the final stage of the Indo-Greek dynasties the Bactrian part of the territory was overrun by foreign invaders like the Indo-Scythians. Ultimately only a small Indo-Greek territory remained in the Punjab.

This history has quite some similarities with the late Romans and the division into the Western and Eastern empire. Only we know less about the Indo-Greeks.

Below some examples of the coins from the later stage of the decline of the dynasty. These look crap, but are quite rare and expensive.

Zoilos II:

Period of Strato II/III:

 

OK, so it's historically inaccurate/incorrect to call Apollodotos I, Menander, Apollodotos II etc and their coins Bactrian / Baktrian. Culturally these rulers and coins are very much Bactrian / Greek /Macedonian, though they didn't rule/issue coins in Bactria, but rather in Gandahara / Punjab / the 'Indo-Greek Kingdom'. In fact, Baktria and the Indo-Greeks are actually at war with each other during the reign of Menander.

Glad I learned some more, though this whole thing started with me searching for Baktrian coins

Edit considering TH's simultaneous post:

Great summary!

That Zoilos II actually looks strikingly similar to some of the apparent Apollodoto II variations I saw earlier on VCoins ... I wonder if any of these have been mixed up / misattributed, hence the excessive variety?

 

It may be difficult to keep the late Indo-Greek coins apart (just like the late Romans i think). Checked your Vcoins query. There's no Zoilos hiding there unfortunately. But you are right on the similarities.

This are some typical Graeco-Bactrians:

Diodotos II:


Euthydemos I: