I have only used TPG for currency as I like how the sealed sleeves protect them, but I've never had a coin graded, but feel they serve a purpose for some, but not all. Being subjective as it is, I like the grade I give the coin and that's all that matters to me.
They are worth the money if you are buying and selling really expensive material. You can't get the full value for a good coin if it is "raw" (ungraded). I share the frustrations with those who don't like the inconsistencies of grading. If you are a dealer, who has access to a lot of raw coins, you can make a good living from graded coins, if you know how to grade. You also need to know how to grade coins if you are dealer. It’s been my experience that dealers who try to trade based on what is printed on the label, don’t stay in business very long. I have cut my purchases of U.S. coins back considerably because of CAC and third party grading. I can deal with PCGS and NGC, but when CAC becomes the final arbitrator, I’m out.
There are rumors of a new movie coming out - The Return Of The Derp Brothers I'll let you two guess who has the starring rolls !
This spring I purchased a dozen Norwegian coins on Ebay here in the USA, intending to resell them at auction in Norway. Two of them, in the opinion of the Norwegian auction house, were counterfeit. They mailed them back to me, and honestly...I would NEVER have guessed they were counterfeit. The person I bought them from originally won them at a Heritage auction. So, they can evidently slip by them, too. Now, I suspect at least one of these was a contemporary counterfeit. The other I can't even guess. The point is, with both contemporary and modern counterfeits getting so common and folks like me having difficulty detecting 18th and 19th century coins since we don't handle them enough, I'm afraid I will have to depend on TPGs more often than I would have thought 5 or 10 years ago. Here are the two in question. Would you have called them out as fake?
Unless you go off the rails and make a personal attack on another CT member there's no need to apologize. We all express our opinions in this forum and one must remember not to take anything said personally. When it comes to TPGS, I've found them good for the hobby as a whole. Yes, they make mistakes now and then; there's a lot of subjectivity in the process. But I think many of us have probably become better graders as a result. The internet has been a valuable tool for me when evaluating a potential coin I want to purchase. I can find high resolution images of many examples to compare with. I feel more confident buying a TPGS slabbed coin over the internet than relying on a grade on a raw coin given by a guy I don't know.
I agree with you. My thoughts are simple, if you have a problem with TPG's then do not use them. I for one use them frequently and it has proved to be a profitable investment. No matter what (WITH FEW EXCEPTIONS) a coin graded by one of the three TPG's is going to bring more than a raw coin. I may not agree with the grade but I am very careful about sending coins to be graded, I usually have a very good idea as to the grade that will be assigned but not always. Semper Fi. P.S. Mac I understand what you are saying.
Just to expand The PCGS platinum costs $250 a year which is the one you want to get. You get 8 vouchers with that which you would use on regular service. 8x38=308 which has already saved you about 60 dollars, you also get a nike dry fit polo with that membership that you can sell for 15-20 if you want. So yea if you submit coins joining actually saves you money
I've been a member two years now since I had a number of coins I wanted graded and slabbed. I learned more about cleaned coins in the process. Sure, I was disappointed with several key Buffalos that came back UNC details but I learned a little in the process. I also learned to be very careful buying certain raw coins from pictures only. I wish that PCGS would give pants with a new subscription to go along with the shirt.
What an outfit that would be with full PCGS dry fit lol. Their membership really is the best deal by far at this point. Aside from the learning experience its the only one that actually saves you money. I would join before every submission if we were allowed to keep doing that.
Mac, I didn't see your original post but do agree with several replies that unless you went totally off the rails and crossed the line, no apologies should be necessary for standing by your beliefs and I totally respect your apology although likely unnecessary. It shows character. Just as it was your opinion, the TPG's are offering their opinions, for a price. Opinions are always going to subject to disagreement. All that said, I own both graded and raw coins. Graded coins offer me a level of confidence in authenticity and "approximate" grade. Ultimately a higher expectation of value and ease when it comes time to sell. My issue with the TPG's is that they employ their own twists on grading standards. For me that is an issue, there should be a single standard that they all follow and adhere to. And while that standard may change over time, it will still, and should, be the same "measuring stick". ANA standards would and should be the standard to follow or at minimum starting point. JHMO.
What's interesting is that the person that founded CAC also was involved in founding PCGS & then NGC. CAC won't even look at an ANACS graded coin or any other grading service coins. WHY? CAC is supposed to only be confirming that they agree with the grade on the slab or if they feel the coin is under graded then they put a gold sticker on the slab. To me that's a big problem. They should evacuate any services coins. It shouldn't matter who graded it. Unfortunately dealers are using that sticker as a sales tool. Which I can understand. However, they hype coins with a CAC sticker as the only ones to buy. That gives me the impression that any coin without a CAC sticker isn't worth owning. That's a disservice to your average collector.
1865King, posted: "What's interesting is that the person that founded CAC also was involved in founding PCGS & then NGC. CAC won't even look at an ANACS graded coin or any other grading service coins. WHY? CAC is supposed to only be confirming that they agree with the grade on the slab or if they feel the coin is under graded then they put a gold sticker on the slab. To me that's a big problem. They should evacuate any services coins. It shouldn't matter who graded it. Unfortunately dealers are using that sticker as a sales tool. Which I can understand. However, they hype coins with a CAC sticker as the only ones to buy. That gives me the impression that any coin without a CAC sticker isn't worth owning. That's a disservice to your average collector." I agree but there are very obvious reasons the owner of CAC excludes all other slabs and that is his choice. It does not make CAC or John a bad person. It only hurts other services and the dealers/collectors who use them or buy their coins. It must hurt CAC's "potential profits" too but who needs more money or wants to "rock the boat."
No, that is not correct. It is a common thought and I have heard this many times, but no. I understand you meant "evaluate". But again, making a successful market requires a careful plan and following that plan until there is need for a change. The opinion you stated was hashed out very publicly back in 2008 or so. The CAC individuals had very sound plausible reasons, and in my opinion those reasons still exist, and as an entity that made a market, why should they change the plan. Who would you consider benefitted by the entity creation of CAC? The "Doctors" or the collector? Full disclosure: I am disappointed in CAC for the last couple of years, but the reason is that in my opinion, CAC has strayed to a path emphasizing the monetary enticement benefits of their 4PG, which favors the TPGs, and allows laziness and inefficiency to go up a notch in the TPGs.
I was gonna reply with something similar to this comment. It's pretty insane. I am floored at how much "graded" unsealed video games have been going for lately. Plus I chuckle at seeing graded Shoes, Cereal Boxes, toys, & so on. Everything is all about grading now and it really ruins the fun. But I myself continue to buy raw anything when given the chance. That's Comic Books, Toys, Coins, Non-Sports cards, and even Autographs.
I suggested a few times in the past on this Forum: Go to the PCGS Board, and research the CAC Thread, which starts with the explanation of the birth of the entity, presented by Mark in an open commentary format, and very extensive, that was the best pubic conversation on the subject, consisting of Dealers, collectors, investors, and as I recall, only one "outlier" TPG representative. Doing so allows a person to evaluate CAC directly based on the conversation, and consider for themselves the purpose, the benefits and the detriments of CAC and their plan. It would serve collectors, and you, a fair and impartial and direct informational source that would serve better than me regurgitating. I am more interested, since you have responded, what are your thoughts concerning the questions I asked in my post? What are your thoughts concerning my disappointment of the emphasis path of monetary enticement, and what are your thoughts concerning whether or not it has caused negative quality goals of the TPGs? That would be a much more robust discussion, I think. Please tell us your thoughts, after reading the PCGS thread. One of the interesting aspects of the Thread, was the tolerance (maybe no choice considering the overwhelming interest of Board members) of PCGS to allow the Thread to continue to the degree it did.
I evaluate CAC based the coins upon which it places stickers. As I have said many times before, CAC gets it right over 95% of the time, but there are enough "clunkers" among their approvals to question giving this company a blank check. I have also noticed at strong tendency for CAC to follow grade-flation, not object to it. I have a file that I maintain of pictures of questionable CAC approved items. I have also noted a growing number of such items offered for sale on the Internet. The standards have dropped, and CAC has followed them. As for "robust discussions" on the PCGi Forum, I would beg to differ. One thing you learn over there is that you mostly keep your head down and stay in your foxhole on controversial subjects. You can fire a minor round now and then, but you mostly stay on the defensive. Failure to do so will result in termination. You also run the risk of having the "CAC-a-files" attack you if you differ with them. Many of these people have now invested hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, in the CAC enterprise through their coin purchases. Dealers are also basing their marketing programs around CAC. They will not tolerate anyone who disagrees with their total support of CAC infallibility. .
