Anybody else try out the new Auction house Papillon Numismatics?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ryro, Sep 21, 2020.

  1. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    I am always leery of trying out new auction houses,

    • [​IMG]

    buuuut with the current prices at which some coins are selling, their cheapie 12% buyers fees and cheapie 10 euro shipping, I figured I would try my hand on a couple of coins that I am familiar with (and really liked) and see if I could save a little dough...

    I think you know that means the first one is a Macedonian shield type (Vespy must've been on a diet while visiting Macedon...and was the trip by boat? He looks a little green around the gills:troll:;)):
    [​IMG]
    MAKEDON. Koinon . Vespasian ( 69 - 79 AD). Ae. Obv: Laureate head left . ΑΥΤΟΚΡΑΤ [ΩΡ ΚΑΙΣΑΡ] ΟΥΕΣΠΑΣΙΑΝΟΣ. Rev: ΚΟΙΝΟΝ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΩΝ. Makedonian Shield. RPC 333. SNG COP. 1336. Rare. Condition: Extremely Fine. Weight: 8.82 g. Diameter: 23 mm.


    The second is an upgrade of a type I just love and needed to upgrade badly (this one sure did get circulated but nothing like my old dinger that's reverse made it look like Roma was pooping a couple small canoes and not sitting on shields):
    1341262_1598451082.l.jpg
    ANONYMOUS. Denarius (115-114 BC). Rome.
    Obv: ROMA.
    Helmeted head of Roma right; X (mark of value) to left.
    Rev: Roma seated right on pile of shields, holding spear; birds in flight to upper left and right; to lower right, Lupa Romana standing right, head left, suckling the twins Romulus and Remus.
    Crawford 287/1.
    Condition: Very fine.
    Weight: 3.87 g.
    Diameter: 19 mm.

    Does anybody know anything about this auction house and or were darned fool enough as myself to give them a go on their maiden voyage (please share those coins if you did)? And please post anything you feel is relevant!
     
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  3. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    I took the risk as well and my purchases are quite pricey. Checking their address in google maps it's a semi detached house in a village outside Orleans in France. So now I am having second thoughts :-/ Most photos are out of focus so you have to imagine the rest of the coin which is blurry in the photo and hope there's no hidden damage. BIDDR will of course play the pontius pilatus, they are the platform and they don't care about the contract between the bidder and the auctioneer. And I doubt they even check if this is a professional numismatist or an illegal digger in the near east.

    I know some will say trust the seller or don't buy etc. I would of course have liked to get the same coins from CNG (@Ardatirion) which I trust very much -although they do upset me sometimes. However coins of the same dies in nearly similar condition sold for 2x or 3x the price in CNG. So if you have no chance against the usual few bidders who will always win, then you have to turn into these weird venues.

    So now I hope I will not get a few euro coins instead of the coins I won, or the seller will not take the money and disappear.
     
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  4. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    I was very "bummed" out when I won this coin from a new auction house at the time (Ares):
    20190823_185849_A97AA195-0BFF-4E38-A089-EE14B8ABA186-2443-000002C4D54529D1.jpg
    and they sent me this:
    share3141488283797089371.png

    When I pointed out their mistake they acted like they had no idea where the coin came from nor where MY coin was. When I asked for a refund they said something to the affect of "Well, they are worth the same amount."
    No. No they are not:punch:

    I did cover my assets this time around by paying the 5% to pay via Ebay. Just in case they turn out to be no good.
     
  5. benhur767

    benhur767 Sapere aude

    I had a similar experience with a well-established European auction house who I won't name (although I'm not really sure that I should feel the need to protect their reputation). They sent me the wrong coin, lower value than the one I bought. When I notified them, it took weeks for them to get back to me. When they finally did, they informed me that my coin was sent to a dealer who had already sold it, and incredibly the dealer had no idea that the coin didn't really belong to him. :facepalm:

    Of course, they refuse to tell me the name of the dealer (who they say is "reputable") or the person the coin was sold to (even though I have title to the coin, and whoever is in possession of it possesses it illegally). They said the dealer offered me a similar coin from a different emperor, but not the same because the coin I bought had a legend error that neither the dealer nor the auction house noticed. They also said I can keep the lower value coin that I don't want. If I wanted it I would have bid on it.

    Anyway, I insisted that they request that the dealer notify their buyer that they don't actually own the coin and it needs to be returned. Now that all parties are aware of the situation, the person currently in possession of the coin should be aware that they own it illegally, so they need to surrender it. If I had the coin and was informed of the situation, I would return it. I really don't see what the problem is. Nonetheless, refusal to surrender the coin is theft. That's my perspective on the matter. As yet the issue is unresolved.

    So even this well-established auction house, which I've never had a problem with before, turns out to be untrustworthy. Caveat emptor. Oh, and I did bid in the Papillon sale, and won something more expensive than I should have. I don't want to say what it is, because if you look up the hammer price you'll probably think that I overpaid (I don't want my suspicions confirmed!). So we'll see how it turns out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
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  6. Finn235

    Finn235 Well-Known Member

    They had some interesting coins and results were mixed - some went cheap, some fetched good prices.

    I won two relatively inexpensive lots which I will post when (if?!) they arrive. I had my eye on several of the large lots, but grossly under-estimated how long I had to leave my phone on the charger to catch them in live bidding mode. They mostly went very high, except for 568, which had three tribute penny denarii.

    I did have a concern about this Maximus - I normally would have emailed the auction house, but didn't notice until the day of how porous and soapy it looks - hopefully just overcleaned, but....
    https://www.biddr.com/auctions/papillonnumismatic/browse?a=1262&l=1341314
     
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  7. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    GOOD EYE! That thing does look soft and soapy:banghead:
     
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  8. tartanhill

    tartanhill Well-Known Member

    I did bid on six coins in their auction; I thought that many others would be wary and not chance a new auction house and I would find some bargains. Not to happen. I didn't win one of the six I bid on, however, my bids were quite low and the hammer prices were what I consider reasonable. I did follow the live bidding and thought it went quite smoothly. It will be interesting to see if any of the winners end up having problems with shipping.
     
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  9. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..yeah 'bummer'...ive been wanting one of those bare-bottomed venus coins ever since i saw one...
     
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  10. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    Thank you for talking us out of two sellers. Regarding the Vespasian: When you see a Vespasian portrait that looks young, you should consider if it might be Titus. The coin shown is missing the part of the legend that makes the difference. I also note that the cut and paste job says that the ΩΡ is off flan but it is clearly there meaning that they did not bother to correct what they copied.
    I do not know enough about that series to ID that coin. It could be any ruler that issued the type fifty years either way. Vespasian and Titus are on the list but they are not all that are on the list. My first guess looking at the portrait would be neither. Best wishes.

    My Nero is not as nice in some respects but I do believe the legend fragments add up to Nero.
    pb0080bb0047.jpg

    If you continue dealing with them ever again, you deserve what you get. Good sellers are both honest and capable. One or the other is not good enough. The Venus coins are common enough that you will have no trouble finding a better one. These are six of mine. I recognize at least twenty variations on the type. Some are rare; some common.
    [​IMG]
     
  11. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter I dig ancient coins...

    Didn't try it but I might in the future. One day I might set up my own auction house when I retire from my present business ventures. I know it mostly is a labor of love unless you can secure a large number of coins from collectors and estates.
     
  12. Pavlos

    Pavlos You pick out the big men. I'll make them brave!

    I won a few coins, let's see if it is a trustworthy new auction house.

    I see there is another new auction house as well on biddr called NSB auctions.
    https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nsbauctions/

    Looks like a sister company of Zeus Numismatics.

    Offering fake fantasy coins over again.
    [​IMG]
    https://www.biddr.com/auctions/nsbauctions/browse?a=1305&l=1383479
    https://www.biddr.com/auctions/zeusnumismatics/browse?a=996&l=1065686

    Reverse die match with a fake Lysimachos drachm: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?lot=77&p=lot&sid=589

    Seems there are a lot of these obscure biddr auction houses coming and going again.
     
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  13. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    The problem is mainly we, the collectors who decide to bid on such auctions. I don't know about others, I turned into these mainly hoping for less competition. It's not much less in the end, if there are only a handfull high grade coins, these will never sell low. I was shocked when I realised @AncientJoe is browsing and buying from these.

    As for biddr, even a company called tromponi auctions with gousgounis's face as a logo would be allowed to use their platform at long as they get their fees.
     
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  14. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ...well, idk about the auctionhouse...but you have made up my mind for the Monday nite movie..we'll call it..'the big house! :D papillon.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
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  15. Herodotus

    Herodotus Well-Known Member

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    French Guiana? Papillon? Good flick....
     
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  17. robinjojo

    robinjojo Supporter! Supporter

    I guess bidding in their auction puts butterflies in one's stomach....
     
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  18. Robert Hoppensteadt

    Robert Hoppensteadt New Member

    I took a chance on a very rare and epensive coin for the same reasons mentioned - it went pretty cheap even with the weak dollar because of the fees. The guy who the money got transferred to is Ibrahim Ozden, don't know him. My fingers are crossed but the coin itself has die matches to to more worn examples.
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    Almost all coins in the Greek section is from Turkish territory and the seller is a Turk. I guess the coin trees in Germany will be having some bad seasons in the coming years
     
  20. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    How do you know where those coins are from?
    What's a German coin tree?? And where can I get one???
     
  21. ominus1

    ominus1 Well-Known Member

    ..i think you have to grow them....i happen to have some seeds ifn ya interested...^^
     
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