Any Kennedy Nuts out there??

1st strike in one way Jackie Didn't like the Hair.
they think there about 10-20k made like this one.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Are you sure? Maybe the story has been turned around 180 degrees over the past nearly 50 years from what really happened.

The only documentation I/ve been able to read is Gilroy Roberts version which was written just months into the series and he states that Jackie wanted more hair accents in the hair, not less, from the originial design which he (Roberts) complied with.

Any yes, Lee it is lunch time so no need to tell dad that I'm on the forum instead of paying attention in classes.

 

Your $1000.00 would not even get you third place in the bidding when I sold my MS67 last year. And it was just a plane Jane white coin.

I will also note the Richard Green was no a fan of this coin he really liked the white or plain coins the best in his long time number one set. I was able to get a couple including a MS70 1998-S from him. A gentleman that sparked a interest in Kennedy's for many of use.

 

Damn! I was just about to rat you out!

 

We just got an email from Dr. Wiles tonight, ten of the coins we sent him for attribution made ten more slots that we can check off for our http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/showcase.aspx?sc=1165. Some day I need to learn to use the camera.

 

That's quite a feat, Caleb. As you may know I have used Todd Pollock to photograph some of my better varieties and include the pickup points in a composite. The results are on my website and Registry Set as well. I think he does great work. I am a terrible coin photographer. You might consider using him for some of the better pieces, or someone like him ....

I find your comments about the Accented Hair interesting, and yes, backwards from what I have always read. I know I have seen Gilroy Roberts' comments somewhere, but for the life of me I cannot remember where. Can you cite a source for Jackie Kennedy wanting the hair emphasized rather than deemphasized? I checked the Breen Complete Encyclopedia (FWIW) and he says "Mrs. Kennedy approved of the designs, except that she preferred to de-emphasize the part in JFK's hair."

??? Thanks.

 

1971 ddo

 

Your Dad sent me the link, to both Gilroy Roberts' and Frank Gasparro's recollections written only months after the introduction of the Kennedy half. Interesting stuff, and frustrating too! The pertinent point is where Roberts, designer of the obverse, writes: "... Mrs. Kennedy was favorably impressed with the design on both sides of the coin but felt it would be an improvement if the part in the hair, on the portrait, was less pronounced and more accents were added. ..."

The presumption is "more accents in the hair" but I suppose it could be read to mean accents elsewhere as well. And the passive voice "accents were added", the lack of an object "added to what/where?" and his lack of explaining exactly what he did (or, passively, "what was done") all make for frustrating reading. And how does all of this interrelate to the Type One/Type Two Reverse dies? This requires cogitation on my part ...

Here's the link for those who want to read the whole thing (click on footnote 11):

http://www.usmint.gov/historianscorner/index.cfm?action=nugget08-12-07

Thanks for pointing this out to us, Caleb.

 

how do you tell if you have a 1964 SMS coin

 

I know he was good for something, just never figured out what for yet?

 

I'm leaving this one alone.

 

why
can you answer my question

 

Sometimes I get a little carried away with my answers, but bottom line - I don't believe there are any "1964 Special Mint Sets". PCGS has mis - labeled these coins.

PS: You may want to read this thread. http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=30&threadid=831502

 

Here are just some of my Kennedys.
I have decided to sell all my slabbed coins.
I just like the raw ones better, and they look great in my album.
Alan

 

I am fascinated by the little lock of hair over/by the R of LIBERTY.
In 1964 it covered the tail of R.
in early 1971 it merged with the tail of R.
Late 1971 and 1972 it was separate from R.
In 1973 it had rejoined the R.
On the 1973 and 1976 coins I have on hand now, the lock of hair is firmly attached to the R, but is not connected to the scalp on the other end.
By 2009, it is separate from the R again.
I wonder how Mrs. Kennedy felt about the part she had de-empasized reappearing in 1991.

 

Identifiers for 1964 "SMS" or Specimen Coinage as Certified by PCGS

Caleb is hung up with PCGS calling them "Special Mint Sets" when they should be calling them Specimen or Special strikes. I agree with him on that point, even if we differ from there on a lot of things. Personally, I think Specimen strikes is the best term. The first "sets" -- well, they were really just one of each denomination, cent through half dollar, in plastic capsules -- appeared in Stack's auctions starting in 1993, apparently from the estate of coin dealer Lester Merkin who had died recently (and the speculation is that they came to him either through Mint Director Eva Adams or another Mint employee). There were apparently 15 or 20 sets only. Some of the "sets" however did not contain the true Specimen coins: Some of the half dollars were merely business strikes, so that the half dollars are the rarest of the five denominations.

Stack's recognized the coins as something special, as had Lester Merkin before them, Jess Lipka who bought most of them then, myself, David Lange (who wrote in a 1995 CoinWorld article about a 1964 "Specimen" NGC half, " ... more important are the fine die-polishing lines, arranged in broad swirls, which are evident across its entire obverse and on much of its reverse. The depth of striking is superior to that of any currency piece I've examined and fuilly equal to or superior to that of most Proofs. ..."), John Dannreuther, and lots of other seasoned numismatists. But unfortunately Stack's conjectured in their writeups that they thought they were "experiments for the 1965-67 SMS sets." Presto, the name stuck even though they may have been patterns for the 1964 coinage for all we know. But they are Specimen strikes, clearly, even though their true origins and purpose are unknown. There is no Mint documentation that any of us are aware of.

I have personally examined in my career about fifteen coins, and I have within the last year bought, sold, and/or traded eight different pieces of the 1964 SMS or Specimen coinage, all certified by PCGS -- three halves, two quarters, one each dime, nickel, cent. I own a 1964 SMS 67 PCGS half in my Registry Set.

Each coin is struck, I think multiple times like a proof, with details far sharper than would be seen on any business strike. But the dies, front and back on each denomination, have heavy, crisscrossing die polishing lines. I have discussed the coins with John Dannreuther on PCGS's Board of Experts and he has told me that he thinks the Mint took the business strike dies and "roughened them up" and then struck them like proofs as an experiment.

The coins are easily distinguished from regular business strikes because the heavy die polishing imparts a semi- to nonreflective surface, unlike proofs (and to my eye not really that similar to the real 40% 1965-67 SMS coinage). As I pointed out to Caleb's Dad recently, you can see details on all denominations that just are not present on mere business strikes:
--You can count 17 full steps on the reverse of the cent, try that on a regular Lincoln memorial business strike.
--There are tiny architectural doodads at the top side corners of Monticello on the nickel that you never see on a business strike.
--The hair details on the obverse and the sharp, pointed tail feathers on the eagle of the half dollar are the same, just something that cannot be confused with business strikes.

Since so few examples of each denomination seem to have been struck, the die polishing lines and some other die markers are consistent from coin to coin (except for couple of outliers that I and my customers are still studying). For example, the true 1964 Specimen half dollars all show a tiny "teardrop" bit of extra metal hanging down from the crossbar of the 4. But each denomination has its own set of markers, most less obvious than that one. Bottom line, they exist, they are not business strikes, the silver coins are all 90% not 40%, they are incredibly rare, and well-informed collectors can spot them across the room because they stand out so much from ordinary 1964 coinage.

Digit 4 on a True 1964 "SMS" or "Specimen" Kennedy Half
Note the extra tine of metal hanging down



​

 

Very interesting reading, thank you...

 

I appreciate your saying so! Thank you too!

 

I realize there are no significant key dates in this series, but are there any cupronickel sleepers? Maybe 1982 or 1983? TC

 

Hard proof date to get PR-68 Cameo
1971-S & on Free grade for joining Ngc in1999 I think?
.:kewl: