any idea what this 1909 VDB would grade???

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by ikes4ever, Feb 5, 2011.

  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It's really a question that remains to be answered for coins submitted under any but the Secure Plus tier. But since PCGS mentions Blue Ribbon as an example of one of the foreign substances that their coin sniffer will identify and thus cause a coin not to be graded, it stands to reason that it would be bagged.

    And again, NGC uses the same technology and same substance list that PCGS uses, so they would be no different.
     
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  3. ikes4ever

    ikes4ever Senior Member

    When I bought it. The dealer wiped acetone on it with a q tip. Could that be what were seeing?
     
  4. illini420

    illini420 1909 Collector

    Doug, I know the new PCGS sniffer technology is set up to detect Blue Ribbon, but it is my understanding if that is detected on the coin (or any other foreign substance detected) it doesn't automatically render the coin ungradable. The information from the sniffer is instead passed along to the graders to be used as supplemental information during their in hand evaluation of the coin where they are the final judge of whether or not the coin is indeed gradable after considering all of the information.


    I suspect that if it can be determined that the treatment of the coin was an old treatment which was done many years ago where the surfaces are likely now stable and not likely to change, it would get holdered, but due to the strike weakness on the reverse I think it's MS65BN maximum, maybe MS65+BN... MS66BN is extremely tough and PCGS has never given a 1909 VDB MS67BN so don't get your hopes up there!

    But if the sniffer technology or the graders can tell that it's a more recent treatment on the coin, then I would suspect that the chances of getting body bagged into a Genuine holder increase significantly as the surfaces may be less stable.

    Even if you get it into an MS65BN holder, it's probably worth between $60-$80 or so. Once you factor in shipping both ways and the grading fees, it maybe isn't worth getting graded, especially if you like the coin for your album.
     
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Could be I suppose, but then your understanding would be completely different than mine. Based on what I have read and the videos PCGS put out any of those substances will render a coin ungradeable.

    You know something I don't ?
     
  6. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    Yes, I'm curious too. That's the first time I heard that. Nonetheless, just because it's still given to the graders (and they know something has been detected), it's probably a 99.9999% chance it will be bagged.
     
  7. illini420

    illini420 1909 Collector

    It seems clear that a coin with something detected on it isn't automatically rendered ungradeable just based on the fact it is given to the graders w/ the report of what was found upon the coin. If the machine had the authority to automatically call something ungradeable, there would be no need to print a report and/or pass such information to a grader. Accordingly, the grader appears to be the final judge on such matters. But yeah, the sniffer report may weigh heavily in the grader's decision regarding the coin depending on what exactly is found and how much of it is present on the coin.
     
  8. jallengomez

    jallengomez Cessna 152 Jockey

    No. Pure acetone would leave no trace. Why did the dealer wipe acetone on it when you bought it?
     
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    While I can't say this is definitive, I have an idea of what might be going on.

    Remember how much flack the TPGs got for body-bagging coins, and for how many years that went on ? How people railed and ranted and complained about they were paying the TPGs for doing nothing when a coin was body-bagged ?

    Well, this situation might be similar to that. Rather than just pass the coin on as being ungradeable they are giving the coin to the graders for two reasons. One to establish authenticity so the coin can at least be placed in a Genuine holder, and two to avoid all of the flack that would probably arise if people found out the graders were no longer looking at the coin, that the coin was being discounted by a machine only. For if that happened, it would in a way be a repeat of the body-bag days.

    Looking at it from a diffeent point of view though. Can you imagine what would happen if the graders decided to over-rule the machine and slab a coin even though the machine detected foreign substances on the coin ? Especially after all the hoopla that preceeded the announcemnet of this practice ? If that ever happened, and people found out, then I imagine we would see a furor the likes of which we have never seen. And whatever now remains of PCGS's reputation would be gone in an instant !

    I would suspect that it would be akin to what would happen if PCGS got caught switching coins on submitters. Not that they do or ever would do that, but I suspect the consequences would be about the same.
     
  10. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    Agreed 100%
     
  11. ikes4ever

    ikes4ever Senior Member

    I didn't like the coloring on the reverse. I was a bit more of a coin novice back then as well. I thought it was stained or something. so the dealer wiped some acetone on it. I even had another customer take a look at the coin as well, for his opinion.
     
  12. jcakcoin

    jcakcoin New Member

    Not good at grading- 66 BN

    Good pics
     
  13. Phil Ham

    Phil Ham Hamster

    Although I'm not an expert like the Penny Lady or RMS, I've been collecting cents for over 40-years. This coin is really a nice one. Ok, the potential that it was wiped with oil or acetone could effect it's rating, what do you see on the coin that reduces it's rating? I'm seeing little wrong with this gem. What reduces it to from a 67 to a 66 to a 65?
     
  14. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    FWIW, the coin posted by the OP (and also by EEW) appears to me to have been cleaned with a soap like MS-70.

    The application thereof (and the coloration that results) seems to be at times MA and at other times not-MA according to the TPGs.

    The telltale sign are bright surfaces with monochromatic blue coloration (typically splotchy to some extent).

    If you take a coin like this and put an oil on it, like blue ribbon, the toning will disappear.

    All of the above IMO, and based upon my first hand experience and observations....Mike
     
  15. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    Even though the picture is over-exposed, I can see hits in the obverse fields that would hold this back to a 65. Those fields are ultra important and count significantly toward the grade.
     
  16. illini420

    illini420 1909 Collector

    In addition to the small hits, the strike is also somewhat weak for a 1909 VDB... just look at the weakness of the O in ONE CENT on the reverse.

    Moreover, based on my experience in getting coins graded with PCGS, BN coins are graded a bit tighter than RD or even RB coins. So for a coin to be graded MS66BN it really has to have 67 or better surfaces if you were comparing to a RD cent. And you can rule out MS67BN because PCGS has NEVER EVER graded a Lincoln wheat cent as an MS67BN... I'm not guessing this would be the first.
     
  17. ikes4ever

    ikes4ever Senior Member

    DSC_2872.jpg DSC_2876.jpg DSC_2874.jpg

    3 more photos
     
  18. Phil Ham

    Phil Ham Hamster

    Thanks for the grading information on cents. I find the fact the PCGS doesn't ever, ever grade anything an MS67BN disturbing. Is it in their playbook? It doesn't sound very scientific to me.
     
  19. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

    With the new pics, MS-64BN, there's a couple prints on the reverse and....too splotchy IMO.
     
  20. ikes4ever

    ikes4ever Senior Member

    I agree the reverse is very splotchy.
    anyone care to guess what I paid for this coin 5 years ago?
     
  21. BadThad

    BadThad Calibrated for Lincolns

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