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<p>[QUOTE="talerman, post: 3108762, member: 89314"]Thank you for your interest.</p><p><br /></p><p>In fact I am interested in the heraldry per se which I find a fascinating aspect of early modern European coinage. With respect, I am confident that this coin was struck by the Charles who ruled Nevers & Rethel from 1637-59. There is considerable confusion about the attribution of these coins because the various Charles had different numbers as Dukes of Nevers & Rethel and as Dukes of Mantua. A further complication is that Charles Gonzaga created the principality of Arches in 1608 with its own numbers.</p><p><br /></p><p>Here is a list of all the Charles </p><p><br /></p><p>NEVERS</p><p><br /></p><p>Charles I (1415-64); also count of Rethel</p><p>Charles II (1500–1521); also count of Rethel</p><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I,_Duke_of_Mantua" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I,_Duke_of_Mantua" rel="nofollow">Charles III</a> (1595–1637; also duke of Rethel, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Mantua" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Mantua" rel="nofollow">Mantua</a>, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montferrat" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montferrat" rel="nofollow">Montferrat</a>, and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Mayenne" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Mayenne" rel="nofollow">Mayenne</a>)</p><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_III,_Duke_of_Mantua" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_III,_Duke_of_Mantua" rel="nofollow">Charles IV</a> (1637–1659; also duke of Rethel, Mantua and Montferrat; sold the Duchies of Nevers and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_and_Dukes_of_Rethel" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_and_Dukes_of_Rethel" rel="nofollow">Rethel</a> in 1659 to Cardinal Mazarin)</p><p><br /></p><p>RETHEL</p><p><br /></p><p>Charles I (1415-64); also count of Nevers</p><p>Charles II (1500–1521); also count of Nevers</p><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I,_Duke_of_Mantua" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I,_Duke_of_Mantua" rel="nofollow">Charles III</a> (1595–1637; also duke of Nevers, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Mantua" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Mantua" rel="nofollow">Mantua</a>, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montferrat" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montferrat" rel="nofollow">Montferrat</a>, and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Mayenne" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Mayenne" rel="nofollow">Mayenne</a>)</p><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_III,_Duke_of_Mantua" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_III,_Duke_of_Mantua" rel="nofollow">Charles IV</a> (1637–1659; also duke of Nevers, Mantua and Montferrat; sold the Duchies of Nevers and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_and_Dukes_of_Rethel" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_and_Dukes_of_Rethel" rel="nofollow">Rethel</a> in 1659 to Cardinal Mazarin)</p><p><br /></p><p>Charles de Gonzaga inherited the Duchy of Nevers & Rethel in 1595 as Charles III. He made it into the principality of Arches, building the capital of Charleville in 1606. </p><p><br /></p><p>Princes of ARCHES & CHARLEVILLE</p><p><br /></p><p>Charles I (1580-1637; also Charles III of Nevers & Rethel and Carlo I of Mantua)</p><p>Charles II (1637-1665); also Charles IV of Nevers & Rethel and Carlo II of Mantua)</p><p>Charles III Ferdinand (1665-1708)</p><p><br /></p><p>In 1627 Charles III of Nevers & Rethel (Charles I of Arches) succeeded his cousin Vincent II as Duke of Mantua as Carlo I. His right to succeed was contested by Emperor Ferdinand II at the urging of Savoy and Spain but he was supported by the Pope & Venice. In the following War of the Succession of Mantua, France intervened in 1629. Charles was finally confirmed as Duke of Mantua in 1631.</p><p><br /></p><p>MANTUA</p><p><br /></p><p>Carlo I (1628- 1637; also Charles III of Nevers & Rethel and Charles I of Arches)</p><p>Carlo II (1637- 1665; also Charles IV of Nevers & Rethel and Charles II of Arches)</p><p>Ferdinando Carlo (1665-1708; also Charles III Ferdinand of Arches)</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>The legend on the obverse of the coin I posted starts with Charles' Mantua titles: </p><p>.CAROLVS.II. D.G. DVX. MANT.MONT.ET. AR (ches). P (rince). </p><p>I think it is clearly a coin of Carlo II of Mantua (Charles II of Arches), also known as Charles IV of Nevers & Rethel.</p><p><br /></p><p>If this were not complicated enough, there is another way of counting the Charles of Nevers & Rethel which does not include the first Charles (1415-64) who was not a member of the Gonzaga family. Using this count, the counts of Nevers were:</p><p><br /></p><p>Charles I (1415-64); also count of Rethel</p><p>Charles I Gonzaga (1500–1521); also count of Rethel</p><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I,_Duke_of_Mantua" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I,_Duke_of_Mantua" rel="nofollow">Charles II</a> Gonzaga (1595–1637; also duke of Rethel, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Mantua" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Mantua" rel="nofollow">Mantua</a>, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montferrat" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montferrat" rel="nofollow">Montferrat</a>, and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Mayenne" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Mayenne" rel="nofollow">Mayenne</a>)</p><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_III,_Duke_of_Mantua" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_III,_Duke_of_Mantua" rel="nofollow">Charles I</a>II Gonzaga (1637–1659; also duke of Rethel, Mantua and Montferrat; sold the Duchies of Nevers and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_and_Dukes_of_Rethel" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_and_Dukes_of_Rethel" rel="nofollow">Rethel</a> in 1659 to Cardinal Mazarin)</p><p><br /></p><p>I suspect this is far more than you ever wanted to know about Nevers-Rethel or the Gonzaga family. No wonder some numismatists go slightly mad ! In the meantime I am still no closer to decoding that coat of arms.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="talerman, post: 3108762, member: 89314"]Thank you for your interest. In fact I am interested in the heraldry per se which I find a fascinating aspect of early modern European coinage. With respect, I am confident that this coin was struck by the Charles who ruled Nevers & Rethel from 1637-59. There is considerable confusion about the attribution of these coins because the various Charles had different numbers as Dukes of Nevers & Rethel and as Dukes of Mantua. A further complication is that Charles Gonzaga created the principality of Arches in 1608 with its own numbers. Here is a list of all the Charles NEVERS Charles I (1415-64); also count of Rethel Charles II (1500–1521); also count of Rethel [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I,_Duke_of_Mantua']Charles III[/URL] (1595–1637; also duke of Rethel, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Mantua']Mantua[/URL], [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montferrat']Montferrat[/URL], and [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Mayenne']Mayenne[/URL]) [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_III,_Duke_of_Mantua']Charles IV[/URL] (1637–1659; also duke of Rethel, Mantua and Montferrat; sold the Duchies of Nevers and [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_and_Dukes_of_Rethel']Rethel[/URL] in 1659 to Cardinal Mazarin) RETHEL Charles I (1415-64); also count of Nevers Charles II (1500–1521); also count of Nevers [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I,_Duke_of_Mantua']Charles III[/URL] (1595–1637; also duke of Nevers, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Mantua']Mantua[/URL], [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montferrat']Montferrat[/URL], and [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Mayenne']Mayenne[/URL]) [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_III,_Duke_of_Mantua']Charles IV[/URL] (1637–1659; also duke of Nevers, Mantua and Montferrat; sold the Duchies of Nevers and [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_and_Dukes_of_Rethel']Rethel[/URL] in 1659 to Cardinal Mazarin) Charles de Gonzaga inherited the Duchy of Nevers & Rethel in 1595 as Charles III. He made it into the principality of Arches, building the capital of Charleville in 1606. Princes of ARCHES & CHARLEVILLE Charles I (1580-1637; also Charles III of Nevers & Rethel and Carlo I of Mantua) Charles II (1637-1665); also Charles IV of Nevers & Rethel and Carlo II of Mantua) Charles III Ferdinand (1665-1708) In 1627 Charles III of Nevers & Rethel (Charles I of Arches) succeeded his cousin Vincent II as Duke of Mantua as Carlo I. His right to succeed was contested by Emperor Ferdinand II at the urging of Savoy and Spain but he was supported by the Pope & Venice. In the following War of the Succession of Mantua, France intervened in 1629. Charles was finally confirmed as Duke of Mantua in 1631. MANTUA Carlo I (1628- 1637; also Charles III of Nevers & Rethel and Charles I of Arches) Carlo II (1637- 1665; also Charles IV of Nevers & Rethel and Charles II of Arches) Ferdinando Carlo (1665-1708; also Charles III Ferdinand of Arches) The legend on the obverse of the coin I posted starts with Charles' Mantua titles: .CAROLVS.II. D.G. DVX. MANT.MONT.ET. AR (ches). P (rince). I think it is clearly a coin of Carlo II of Mantua (Charles II of Arches), also known as Charles IV of Nevers & Rethel. If this were not complicated enough, there is another way of counting the Charles of Nevers & Rethel which does not include the first Charles (1415-64) who was not a member of the Gonzaga family. Using this count, the counts of Nevers were: Charles I (1415-64); also count of Rethel Charles I Gonzaga (1500–1521); also count of Rethel [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I,_Duke_of_Mantua']Charles II[/URL] Gonzaga (1595–1637; also duke of Rethel, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Mantua']Mantua[/URL], [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montferrat']Montferrat[/URL], and [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Mayenne']Mayenne[/URL]) [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_III,_Duke_of_Mantua']Charles I[/URL]II Gonzaga (1637–1659; also duke of Rethel, Mantua and Montferrat; sold the Duchies of Nevers and [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts_and_Dukes_of_Rethel']Rethel[/URL] in 1659 to Cardinal Mazarin) I suspect this is far more than you ever wanted to know about Nevers-Rethel or the Gonzaga family. No wonder some numismatists go slightly mad ! In the meantime I am still no closer to decoding that coat of arms.[/QUOTE]
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ANY FRENCH HERALDRY EXPERTS OUT THERE ?
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