Any Counterstamp Collectors Out There?

Discussion in 'What's it Worth' started by Pi man, Jun 13, 2013.

  1. cwtokenman

    cwtokenman Coin Hoarder

    Thanks for the story Bruce, there were a few facts there of which I was not aware. I might add that the Schiller token is considered to be a Civil War Storecard token, with the id of LA670A-1do. Kanzinger lists it in his Civil War Token Collectors Guide, but it is not in the Fulds' book. It should be listed in the new storecard book, whenever it gets released. LA670A-1do is the only variety of cwt Kanzinger lists for the state of Louisiana.

    I believe that you are absolutely correct, JBK. I seriously doubt Schiller would have believed anyone who might have told him his tokens would someday be worth thousands of dollars.
     
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  3. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    BTW Ed do you have any idea when the new edition of the storecard book is going to be published? It seems like it's been in the works forever, much like the new edition of Greg Brunk's counterstamp book. I'm in touch regularly with Greg and know that all the delays are caused by things beyond his control. He is, however, Making good progress despite all the problems. Good to hear from you again Ed.

    Bruce
     
  4. Mike Thorne

    Mike Thorne Well-Known Member

    I'm not really a counterstamp collector, but I've recently encountered one that I find quite interesting, particularly after "googling" it. At the recent summer ANA convention in Chicago, my wife found a gold bracelet with six gold coins in bezels hanging from it. The dealer wanted $2,200 for it, which seemed reasonable given the amount of gold in it. Anyway, 4 of the coins were US gold pieces and 2 were foreign. One of the US coins, an 1845 quarter eagle, has a B. C. HOFF counterstamp on the obverse. Of all the B. C. HOFF counterstamped coins I found online, I couldn't find any that were gold pieces. Are there any other counterstamped gold pieces known? If I can get more information about this piece, I might write a column for Coins magazine about it. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Mike
     
  5. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    The B.C. Hoff stamps are well known there being about 50 examples documented...none on gold coins. About half of them are on S/L Quarters, the rest on Large Cents, dimes , and other odd coins. It's funny you mention Hoff Mike as I just picked up a new variety of his stamp a week or two ago. It had a second stamp ("L.F. Hunt") added some time later and is previously unknown. While both men are separately listed in Brunk, this is the first time they've appeared together on a coin.

    As I always do with any new piece I pick up, I researched Hunt to see if I could find a connection between the two men but, unfortunately, I couldn't.

    Counterstamps on gold coins are rare and usually valuable well beyond their bullion value. I'd love to see a picture of the coin if you did in fact buy the bracelet. I might be able to tell you a little more about it if you could provide a decent picture. There is some known history on Hoff, but Hunt is still an unknown. I've expanded a bit of what's known about Hoff through my research but I can't even make an educated guess as to who Hunt was. I'm still looking.

    Bruce
     
  6. Mike Thorne

    Mike Thorne Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your response, Bruce. I tried several different ways to get a decent picture of the coin and failed each time. However, I am including one picture that will show you enough so that you can see it's a gold coin dated 1845 and the counterstamp. If I were going to sell it, can you suggest a venue? I've sold many things on eBay but never counterstamped coins. At any rate, I would appreciate your opinion and any other info you can provide.
    Thanks,
    Mike hoffquartereagle#3.jpg
     
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  7. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    Even though the picture isn't clear it looks to be a standard Hoff counterstamp Mike. I've never seen a variation of this style.

    Benjamin Hoff sold jewelry, musical instruments, sheet music, and at one point even guns in his store in Syracuse, NY from the mid-1850's until 1868 when he went bankrupt. Originally he had a partner named James Hyde. The two dissolved the partnership in May, 1859 and Hoff carried on alone as B.C. Hoff & Co. Hoff was a retailer of jewelry and silverware but didn't manufacture it. The stamp that appears on the coins is the one he used to mark the pieces he sold. I have a feeling that your bracelet is one that he originally sold through his shop. Do you see any other stamps or markings on the bracelet or on the other coins? Also, could you tell me the dates of the other five gold pieces.

    Bruce
     
  8. Mike Thorne

    Mike Thorne Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, I think the bracelet was cobbled together well after the period when Hoff had his store. The other coins on it are as follows: an 1853 $1 gold piece in nice shape, an 1882-S $5 gold piece, a 1914 Indian Head quarter eagle, a 1903 British half sovereign, and an 1856 French 10 franc piece. The Indian Head quarter eagle would have to be too new to have been used by Hoff.

    I checked out previous sales of countermarked coins on eBay and Heritage. On Heritage, the prices the coins sold for seemed appropriate for damaged gold pieces. In other words, there didn't seem to be much premium for rarity. Can you suggest any other venues?

    Again, thanks.
    Mike
     
  9. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    I don't know what advice to give you Mike if you're planning on selling the bracelet. You can either remove the coin with Hoff's counterstamp and sell it separately or just sell the bracelet outright. I think it might be worth contacting NGC or PCGS to see what they think about slabbing a gold coin that's been removed from a jewelry setting. It may show some damage but they would likely authenticate it and give it a details grade. At least that way you'd have proof that it was an authentic gold coin which would make it easier to sell. And don't forget, the condition of the host coin is of less importance to a counterstamp collector than the stamp itself...within reason. I would think even more leeway would be shown for condition on a very rare counterstamped gold coin.

    Another person you might want to contact would be Dave Bowers through Stacks/Bowers. Dave is a big counterstamp enthusiast and at one time had a huge collection. He's currently in the process of selling it. Dave is very accessible and would probably be very interested in your story. He could probably give you better advice than anyone else I know. Please keep in touch and let us know what you decide to do.

    Bruce
     
  10. Mike Thorne

    Mike Thorne Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your thoughts, Bruce. I had thought about Bowers, as I remember that he was a collector of counterstamps. I've corresponded with him over the years mainly about reviewing his various books. Also, my editor at Coins magazine (Bob Van Ryzin) seems excited about a column dealing with the find.

    I was just thinking about selling the counterstamped coin, not the whole bracelet. The coins are in bezels, which means they're not damaged as a function of being part of the bracelet. Actually, I'm not sure why I didn't immediately think about having the coin certified, as virtually all of the coins in my collection are slabbed. I'll definitely keep you in the loop about what happens with it.
    Best Wishes,
    Mike
     
  11. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    I hope all works out well for you Mike. If you get to the point where you've decided to sell the coin I'd appreciate a heads-up. I would be interested in making an offer for it.
    Kindest Regards,
    Bruce
     
  12. Mike Thorne

    Mike Thorne Well-Known Member

    I contacted Dave Bowers, as you suggested, and he said he thought it might be worth high 3 figures/low 4 figures and said he would copy Chris Karstedt about it. I assume she's at Stack'sBowers. If I do sell it, I'll let you know.
    Mike
     
  13. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    I'm also sending the info to Greg Brunk so he can add it to his listings for the new edition of his counterstamp book. Thanks and good luck to you Mike.

    Bruce
     
  14. cwtokenman

    cwtokenman Coin Hoarder

    Yes, it has been in the works for a long time. I did some proofreading on the listings for a couple of states for the new book, but that was several years ago. I haven't heard any updates since that time. I thought it was getting close to being published way back then, so I am not sure what the delay is about.
     
  15. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    Thanks for the update.

    Bruce
     
  16. Mike Thorne

    Mike Thorne Well-Known Member

    Bruce, I now have some better pictures of the counterstamped coin that I thought you might like to see. I sent them to Dave Bowers, and he made an interesting offer for the coin either in the bezel or out of it (with no damage from the removal). At any rate, see what you think of my pictures.
    Mike
     

    Attached Files:

  17. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    Thanks for the pictures Mike. The stamp is pretty well struck and doesn't show very much if any of the punch deterioration I've seen on some examples. Hoff must have struck many pieces as there are so many extant.

    I'd love to know the story of how his coin made its way into a bracelet that was obviously manufactured years after his time. Certainly one of the most interesting counterstamps I've ever run into.

    By the way, have you noticed any other maker's marks anywhere on the bracelet? It would be interesting to be able to trace it to the manufacturer. Add a little more to an already fascinating story.

    I doubt I could match an offer made by Dave Bowers but it sure is nice to have a picture of it just the same. Thanks again Mike.

    Bruce
     
  18. Mike Thorne

    Mike Thorne Well-Known Member

    Bruce, how about $1,000 in the bezel, i.e., as is? I'll send it postpaid, of course. Let me know either way.
    Thanks,
    Mike
     
  19. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    DSCF3064.jpg I save the many dozens of them that I have found from roll searching - here is one of the more fascinating examples I have found in the past few months.

    I find lots of those Kennedy c/s on 1972-75 cents - and the states of course.
     
  20. BRandM

    BRandM Counterstamp Collector

    I see a lot of them too scottishmoney, but can't recall seeing one like yours. It's like a skull and crossbones only without the bones. Cool counterstamp!

    Bruce
     
  21. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    DSCF3067.JPG

    Masonic varieties
     
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