Antinous again - what do we think?

Still seeking Antinous, and I found this super-rare medallion which is currently on offer:


Antinous, ca AD 130. Mantinea, Arcadia, BETOY ΠIOC, bare-headed bust of Antinous right, head slightly lowered / TOIC AΡKACI, horse walking right on exergual line, foreleg raised. 26.57g
RPC 328, Pudill M 24

It seems to be the right style, but there's something odd about it, I can't quite put my finger on it? What do we think?


On the other hand, there is this beautiful big drachm available, which looks very good to me, but that would mean giving money to Zurqieh:

 

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I prefer the second coin. On the first coin, the hair does not look good, the manly chest looks a bit weedy.

 

The drachm is almost certainly tooled with artificial sand deposits applied.

 

There we go! Always a reason to be suspicious of Zurqieh! Thank you.
Antinous is so damn expensive, I want an untouched coin.

 

TBH >90% of Antinous coins I've found are tooled or fake. It's really hard to find an "honest" one.

 

Ugh...choices!

 

I'd suggest passing on both and waiting for one with fewer problems.

 

Also, if it's any consolation, I've been looking for an Antinoos as well and have so far left empty-handed. However, nice examples do exist; it's just a matter of time.

 

The medallion looks smoothed to me, but not tooled. The few examples on acsearch have about the same amount of detail but fairly rough surfaces. I think someone took a polishing tool to the entire surface to even out the bumps. That's not as bad as tooling in my book, but I'm with Joe on this one, wait it out.

 

If you look at the statues of Antinous, you see a gorgeous young man with the most glorious hair and muscles to die for. If I had the money (which I don't) I would look for a portrait as close to the statue as I could get. I would value that over a poor portrait with a fabulous reverse. If you haven't read "Beloved and God", you should. It is a cracking read.

 

The trouble with tooling, smoothing and repatination is that a coin can have all three at once. Sure the medallions always seem to be smoothed but that can cover even greater problems below. The demand for Antinoos coins means anything even slightly resembling one is worth tooling. We so often remind people to either know the coin or know the seller. When you know the seller in the way you know this seller, you don't need to question the coin to know you don't want it. What doubt remains?

90% is being kind. I agree with AJ's call for patience. The link below is one I would not mind having even if it isn't even metal.
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=252147
The cool part is the description line:
"Rare and unusual, as Smythe saw no usefulness in including examples of Antinoüs in any coin cabinet."

 

It's certainly a very fine style cast!

And thank you for the reality check - I said previously that you can't want a coin so badly that you must buy from Ilya Zlobin. The same is true for Zurqieh.

 

Yep that's what I want - fine style, like the statues! I'm familiar with the story but I shall have to get my hands on the book!

 

Casts reproduce style so having fine style means nothing. Tooling tends to destroy style. On rare coins, you might find other examples from the dies that would tip off tooling. A great thing about expensive coins is they tend to be reproduced in every sale catalog for the last 50 years.
Hmmm...
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=217975

 

Gosh. How the coin has changed!

 

It's the same coin that Doug just posted from CNG archives. Since the CNG auction it's had major smoothing, pits filled and repatination - none of this declared by the seller.

 

Was there a bit of bronze disease in that first photo? Perhaps someone thought they were improving the coin but it could be that we have a survivor here.

How bad do you want an Antinoos? I agree with Smythe as posted above (even if he spelled the name funny).

 

The green in the reverse pits looks like bronze disease to me.

Antinous/ Antinoos is top of my want list. Right up there with Zenobia and Romulus Augustus. And I won't settle for a lead tessera - I want a proper drachm or medallion.

But I'm beginning to suspect coins of Antinous are the most tooled/faked coins in all antiquity. Which is (I think) what Smythe was getting at: why spend a lot of money on an Antinous when chances are it's been tampered with or fake? I'm lucky so far that I've been able to leverage the advice of Coin Talk, and found that 100% of my prospective Antinous purchases (so far) are fake or seriously problematic. Even if we can't find a die match to a known fake right now, or proof of tampering from a previous incarnation in the auction archives - there's still a lot of doubt.

Interesting point - discussions about tooling are almost always in relation to bronzes. Do gold and silver coins get tooled? Gold and silver coins don't suffer from pitting or corrosion, do they? Can we be more confident generally in the authenticity of good style AR and AV coins?