Ant Nose Coin Collection

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by KVcoins, Feb 8, 2020.

  1. KVcoins

    KVcoins New Member

    I am working towards a new organization cards for all my coins including weight, size, dates, etc... so I brought out my Ant Nose coins to work on them and decided to post my collection.

    The numbers above each coin represent their weight in grams.

    Most of the coins shown are "normal" ant nose coins represented in Hartill's book as H1.4.

    The different ones I have included a H#.# near them on the piece of paper.

    I believe I have one H1.6 which is a "normal" ant nose coin with a bar across the top of the inscription. The shape of the coin isn't the best, so I am not entirely sure it isn't a normal ant nose coin.

    I have two H1.9 - 1.11. The shape of the coins are somewhat lacking so I can't seem to pinpoint which of inscription variations the coins fall under. One idea put forth is the inscription reads “Tang Ge Liu Zhu,” or “Equivalent Each One to Six Zhu.”

    I have three H1.15 or "Xing" or "Crossroads" ant nose coins. These would be the rarest of the ant nose coins I have and weight significantly more than their counterparts.

    The one ant nose coin that is giving me the most trouble is the one I have marked H1.13. It almost looks like it has a partial of the top part of the inscription, however, the coin is in really bad shape. I am also skeptical on if it is a real coin. Whatever material it is made of if very brittle and very different from all other coins I have.

    ORRmrfV.jpg wk9ZiI3.jpg khKQOvs.jpg

    Here is an imgur link which contains additional photos: https://imgur.com/a/hQB1gKg
     
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  3. Bob L.

    Bob L. Well-Known Member

    Welcome, KVcoins. Impressive collection of Ant Nose coins. Fyi, CT member TypeCoin971793 is an authority on these. Hopefully he'll be by to offer some thoughts.
     
    Roman Collector likes this.
  4. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Fantastic collection, @KVcoins !

    I am no expert, but enjoy these early coins...


    [​IMG]
    China Shang Dyn 1766-1154 BC Ant Nose Ge Liu Zhu 2.6g 19.5mm x 11mm very scarce H 1.10

    [​IMG]
    China Shang Dyn 1766-1154 BC Ant Nose Ge Liu Zhu 17.4mm x 10mm very scarce H 1.10

    [​IMG]
    China Shang 1766-1154 BCE or Zhou Dynasty Ghost Face Ant Nose 1.65g Hartill 1.4

    mythical Shang Dynasty Emperor (1600-1046 BCE). This painting is approx 60" x 30" Awesome work.

    I placed it into museum glass, archival paper backing, bamboo frame, etc.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. KVcoins

    KVcoins New Member

    Thanks! I have lurking around for a while and saw TypeCoin971793's completed collection a bit back. I am hoping to complete a similar collection sometime in the future. In the meantime I am hoping to get better at distinguishing whether some of mine are legit or not.
     
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  6. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    For those of us who have no idea what an "ant nose" is, can you give us a quick description?
     
  7. KVcoins

    KVcoins New Member

    I am no expert myself, but I enjoy collecting ancient chinese coins, with ant nose coins being some of my favorite. The ones you posted are really nice! The inscriptions are a lot clearer than a majority of ones I have came across.
     
    Alegandron likes this.
  8. Bob L.

    Bob L. Well-Known Member

  9. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Nice collection!

    Do you have a particular fondness for the Xing types? They are not common, and generally collectors will have far more of the H-1.9-1.11 and “Jun” types than the Xing coins. Of course, there is nothing wrong with having a bunch of them; it’s just odd to me that there are so many relative to the other types.

    It isn’t. It is too heavy. They consistently weigh less than 2g and are rather thin.

    There’s some nice examples on eBay being sold by TomTangMu and asean_coins_wholesaler. They are all genuine.

    However, I have studied this type extensively and can say with 100% certainty that the inscription is NOT Tang Ge Liu Zhu. The problem with this type is that the inscription is so inconsistent. However, there are two attributes often seen in the inscription, and coins which have these two attributes are remarkably consistent. I believe the inscription reads 夂土之本, or “Foundation of the Earth”. The archaic forms of these characters match the inscription precisely.

    They are surprisingly not the rarest, despite what Hartill says (at least in the Western market). Maybe a large hoard has been discovered and dispersed. Other than the three common types (H-1.4-1.6, 1.9-1.11, and 1.12), all the others are rarer. There are at least 4 that are so rare that they aren’t even mentioned in Hartill.

    Their weight is truly puzzling. There are some 1.4 that are as heavy, and the H-1.14 issues are of a similar weight, but the Xing types are consistently 4-5g. My hypothesis is that they were made for trade with the state if Han, but I would have to research it further.

    It looks possibly ancient, but I have a fake of this type. I agree with your attribution. Since you have it in hand, compare it to known genuine examples. The inscription is incredibly consistent.



    Here is my collection of them. I am missing the H-1.15 and 1.18 varieties. I am watching the auctions in case they show up.

    0E0C4178-3E6F-48E7-8052-D3E41E35631F.jpeg

    H-1.16 can be divided into two types. From the Jeff Young collection:

    54453923-A61B-45B5-B622-41D6F426F9E4.jpeg A039B8CA-9F53-40CC-9501-468F58193D73.jpeg

    Here is a super-rare type that often gets confused with the “Yong” type (though neither are in Hartill). I have only seen 2 of this variety.

    8FCFB1EC-1F9C-4EE2-9887-5DB30882B628.jpeg EAF60F93-E99A-4C21-A08A-7E61754C93FC.jpeg

    And lastly a page from an old reference which shows a few more types, some I have not seen a physical coin of.

    E2DDE915-F2C8-4BB2-9D66-A243EA9C6958.jpeg
     
  10. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

  11. KVcoins

    KVcoins New Member

    I guess I have somewhat developed a fondness of the Xing types due to the additional weight they have, but that isn't really the reason I have more of them. I ran across someone selling a collection and couldn't let them be passed up since I wasn't sure when I would get a chance to easily buy more. So I guess you could say it's due to convenience.

    That's good to know, after reading your PDF more closely, I see you talking about that. Thanks for the heads up.

    I will have to due better comparison to genuine examples like you suggest, but thank you for taking a look at it. Do you have any suggestions/tips for establishing convincing fakes over real coins? I have seen obvious fakes being sold, but normally they look nothing like actual coins.

    I see what looks like a Xing coin in your collection, which I would reference as a H1.15 in Hartill's book, however I don't see a H1.18 in the version of his book I have. Could you let me know the version or reference you use or what the H-1.15 and 1.18 varieties are? I am just curious.

    Also, thank you for all the information on the coins, inscriptions, and showing me additional ant nose coins I wasn't even aware existed. I have a lot to learn on them to say the least. If you update the PDF sometime the future I am looking forward to reading all additional information!
     
  12. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Two things: Style and Patina. It is nearly impossible to get both right on a counterfeit. The style includes the font of the character, how bold/sharp it is, shape/quality of the coin, etc. Patina should be very hard, firmly attached to the surface, should not leave "naked" areas in the fields unless due to being pulled away by a stuck coin, and should be random in color and texture. An eye for both of these aspects is gleaned only after exposure to hundreds/thousands of genuine coins.

    I meant H-1.8. Sorry
     
  13. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    They are ancient Chinese coins cast by the State of Chu during the Warring States period ca 300 BC. The name is more accurately “ant and nose coins”. The two most common inscriptions are not positively deciphered, and they look like an ant and a face with a large nose. Hence the name.

    “Ant” coin:

    00135FFE-C2E6-4B29-B4B8-7F365942D0F0.jpeg

    “Nose” coin:

    ABE0FF37-E068-43CF-BE7B-A283A7539C83.jpeg
     
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