Another questionable CAC call

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by johnmilton, Aug 18, 2021.

  1. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    Stop it, Frank! Don’t hit like.

    Does this help? :-D
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  3. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 66+ Supporter

    If you can get him to hit like then life will be over as we know it.

    KBBPLL Well-Known Member

    I'm struggling with whether I should hit like ever again. I mean, people can see that stuff.
  5. Dynoking

    Dynoking Well-Known Member

    In what world is a 1795 Flowing Hair half similar to a 1916-S Walker? That's like comparing a minivan to a Ferrari.[/QUOTE]
    Hey! Walkers are one of my favorites. Couldn't you least have made it Corvette vs Ferrari?
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2021
  6. St Gaudens collector

    St Gaudens collector Active Member

    At 1st I didn't like CAC.
    Now I realize it keeps newbs away from the coins I want & I get a discount.
  7. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Not sure I think many of the others got that joke.
    I prefer to buy coins not just acceptable for the grade but a couple points low
  8. St Gaudens collector

    St Gaudens collector Active Member

    You're probably right :D
    JA & I grade saints totally differently.
    At 1st I didn't like CAC because I went zero beans for 4 submissions on my 12 best coins.
    Every once in awhile I'll see a bean coin I like but it's not often.

    I'm a technical grader while JA is a market grader.
    Probably because I've been collecting for over 50 years :rolleyes: and won't change.
    Anyway, technical graders don't recognize toning, luster or eye appeal in the grade.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  9. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    This is reason why I think CAC has too much influence over the coin market. It’s one man’s opinion, and his opinions are not perfect. Yet, so people treat them as if those pronouncements the irrevocable truth.
    wxcoin likes this.
  10. Seascape

    Seascape U.S. & World Collector

    You would be hard pressed to sell me that coin and I surely wouldn't give 2000.00 for it. If i did buy it it would be a flip.

    Its a problem coin plain and simple.

    I would pass for a better example. Even a lesser grade but clean of problems. Maybe thats just me.
  11. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

  12. Jim Dale

    Jim Dale Well-Known Member

    I have difficulty understanding what NGC & CAC grade scratches. It was mentioned earlier that NGC or CAC don't consider scratches for some reason or other. I bought a 1904 $20 Liberty Head gold coin and sent it into NGC. It came back "UNC Details: Obverse Scratches". If the coin was graded "UNC" wouldn't the scratches be due to "bag marks" or something similar. It seems that NGC or PCGS may consider some scratches, but too many incidental scratches will cause a "Details."
  13. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 66+ Supporter

    Sounds like a song, "CAC Scratch Fever".
    -jeffB, NSP, ldhair and 1 other person like this.
  14. Mac McDonald

    Mac McDonald Well-Known Member

    And not good ones, IMO. Others may interpret your line differently.
  15. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Supporter! Supporter

    I am not here to defend or promote any TPG and especially not CAC, but I think we all agree that grades are subjective, so why would we believe the "scratch" is graffiti instead of a circulation mark? If it were on a say a $30 coin, would it matter any more?
    Looking closely at the mark, with the coin in hand, the consensus was that it was more likely just marks and not someone marking an "X" on the coin. The pressure and course of the marks are questionable, in my opinion, but that's just me.
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    One first has to realize and understand there are numerous things that can cause a coin to be put a "Details" slab. Scratches are just 1 of those things, things like rim dings, hairlines, gouges, bends, dents, harsh/improper cleaning, and a few others will also cause a coin to be put in a "Details" slab. But with all of them it is always a matter of severity.

    In other words it's a judgement call of whether or not the damage is severe enough to warrant the "Details" slab. And, things like the size of the coin and the location of the damage on the coin also matter. For example, a dime may be scratched with a scratch of a given size, depth, and width and the dime would be put in a details slab. But a scratch of the exact same size as the one one the dime, if found a Morgan dollar, - the Morgan could be given a clean grade. This is because of the size of the scratch in relation to the size of the coin. On a dime it counts more, it's more severe because of the size of the scratch compared to the size the coin. On a Morgan it counts less because the coin is so much bigger.

    The same kind of thing applies to all the various reasons for designating a coin as being a problem coin and putting it in a Details slab.

    Also, regarding this part of your comment.

    "If the coin was graded "UNC" wouldn't the scratches be due to "bag marks" or something similar."

    It doesn't matter what caused the scratch or what it is due to, it only matters that it is there. And the UNC part doesn't matter either, the coin could be in XF or VF condition and it would still be put in a Details slab, only it would say - XF Details or VF Details instead of UNC Details.
    fiddlehead, micbraun and Lehigh96 like this.
  17. 1865King

    1865King Well-Known Member

    The 1795 is a details coin it's simple as that. There shouldn't be a CAC sticker on it either. When I looked at the reverse of the coin I noticed adjustment marks. I know someone's going to through a fit but, adjustment marks are no different than damage to me. I hate adjustment marks. Yes I know the mint did it and I know why but, it still doesn't make me not notice the file marks. Adjustment marks should also affect the grading. With the adjustment marks even without the X on the obverse I would knock it's value down to low VF. Sorry if I may have offended anyone but, it's just my opinion.
  18. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    The rules have long been if a mark was made as a part of the minting process, it would not count against the technical grade of the piece. Therefore, if a lady (women worked as adjusters at the first mint for very low wages) ran a file across the face of a planchet to reduce it to the proper weight, that was an adjustment mark, which did not lower the grade of the coin. If, after the coin had been struck, it was immediately dumped into a pile when it got a mark, that would effect the grade.

    As a practical matter, adjustment marks, if they are severe, will lower the value of a coin, if not the asking price. It can also make the coin harder to sell, which is often the same thing.

    The higher the grade of the coin, the more important that adjustment marks become. Adjustment marks on a VF mean less than they do on a Mint State piece.

    The most famous exception to this is the 1794 Silver Dollar that has been graded SP-66 and which sold for over $10 million. That coin has adjustment marks, but it does not seem to matter. Since I can't can't keep up with those big dogs, it is only of academic interest to me.
    wxcoin likes this.
  19. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    And now he's done it to me, had to give him a like!
    wxcoin likes this.
  20. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 66+ Supporter

    But he won't like you back. Story of my life.
    -jeffB likes this.
  21. Jim Dale

    Jim Dale Well-Known Member

    I know it doesn't mean a hill of beans, but this was the first gold coin I bought.
    I had just gotten my father's coins from his collection and I was enamored by this coin from a local dealer. I spoken a long time with him and I felt that he was very reliable. I didn't buy that coin right away. I went home dug into my dog eared Red Book and a couple of other books and magazines. After all, I was about to make a sizeable purchase. When I bought finally decided to buy it, I asked the dealer what kind of grade should I be looking at. He told me that it would probably only be an MS61. At the same time that I bought this coin, I bought another. He said that it too, would probably only get an MS61. He was getting ready to go to a show and he told me he would be glad to have the two coins graded. He hit it on the nose on my second purchase. It was an 1895 $10 Liberty Head. He was surprised that the 1904 $20 Liberty Head got a Details grade and he offered to buy it back from me. I wouldn't even have to pay him the cost of having the 1904 graded. Every once in a while he calls me and lets me know he has gotten something in that I might like.
    I know I couldn't get the Details grade taken off the slab, and I'm too chicken to break into it. But I still don't like the Details grade, if that's what one would call it. Buy the way, I don't and won't have another coin graded. If they are sold, it will be sold by my son when I'm dead and gone and then I'll find out who graded my coin and I'll get him or her on the other side of the pearly gates.
    KBBPLL likes this.
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