Another Find, what the heck is it?

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I have never seen a forgery of a Czarist Russian gold coin.The 5 Roubles of Czar Nicholas II (ruled 1894-1917) is a relatively common coin.I can say that the one posted is definitely not a dud,but it is best to weigh
it on a special set of gold scales.A gold coin that is occasionally forged is the extremely rare 1902 Veld Pond from the South African Republic.

Aidan.

 

Doug and GX,
The apparent slant of the denticles is just a case of light relecting off the tops and sides of each one.The further they get from the main point of focus,the more skewed they appear.Using a loupe,in natural light,the denticles are all exactly 90 degrees all around the rim with no variation.Funny thing is,the more I tried to take a corrected photo,the more pronounced the illusion is on camera.I'll give it a try in sunlight tomorrow.

 

Ahhh..was just looking at one of the closeups I took (through a cheap magnifying glass) and here is one that illustrates my point.In the photo you circled two points where the denticles appear slanted,namely in front of the czar's nose and behind his ear.Here I have rotated the coin and now those slanted ones are 90 degrees and the previously straight ones are skewed..all in the lighting.In hand it's quite apparent but these pics are twighlight zonish..LOL
I'm beginning to think it might have something to do with the NGC slab.Look at this photo,below the bust.The coin's edge appears to be damaged and the denticles nonexistant.Now look at the one in Doug's post and the area is perfect.

 

Mikjo0: thankfully that was what I thought.

No, there are indeed counterfeit Russian gold rubles and in people should watch out. But the most often counterfeited are the 1898-1902 10 rubles and scarce gold rubles minted prior to 1860s. Often such 10 rubles were counterfeited were made in the 1910s so that they could be used in the black market.

I would be really shocked if counterfeiters would dare to try to counterfeit a Nicholai II 5 ruble. It's sheer size and edging should put off most counterfeiters and hence the reason why 10 rubles are more often picked on.

Most gold counterfeited coins are interestinly not made in China, but in Eastern Europe and part of Middle East.

 

Why so shocked?

When counterfeiters will go as far as counterfeiting an Australian penny of no significant value, or modern Egyptian coins with a value less than 1 euro cent each it should comne as no surprise to learn that nigh on every `valuable' coin / collectable has been (at one point or another) the subject of the counterfeiters arts.

I can assure you that the gold Russian 5 roubles is no exception.

Although I do not have one in my counterfeit collection, I have indeed seen more than one in the past few years. Typically light in colour and light in weight too.

Lebanon was `the' centre of the universe at one stage for forged gold coins, specifically British gold sovereigns (yes Aidan.....even though you might not have seen any forged Brit sov's. either there are thousands of them around). Italy has produced some of the best forgeries around too but mainly of silver crowns. Countries like Bulgaria are showing us that they too have produced some excellent artists (which have been put to bad use) . The Chinese are still in an embryonic state when it comes to forgeries. Their errors are (so far) pretty blatant, but there is no doubt that given time their forgeries of collector coins will be something to contend with. It won't be long before a set of scales and callipers for measuring coin thickness will become key tools in every coin collectors armoury.

It is difficult at the best of times to determine a coins bona fide's from a picture. The single best method of determination is by having a coin in the hand, feeling the texture and the weight. Of course if you don't know what the coin should feel like in the first place, that would be a pretty poor method. A set of scales will just tell you that the coin has been made of the right materials (presuming the size of the coin is correct). Many collectable coins HAVE been forged in the correct materials.....including sovereigns.

On a point of irony, long before it was appreciated as being a precious metal, platinum used to be a material of choice for forgeries. Typically used (along with some light gold plating) to forge french 20fr pieces. These pieces would tip the balance when a coin was being checked for gold. The irony of course being that in platinum alone these forgeries are now worth roughly twice the value of the coins they imitate. As collector pieces however, I have seen them sell for over $1,000 a piece. Ironic indeed.

To me, the original coin in this thread still looks like a fake. Add to that that some dealer who presumably makes his money by selling collector coins decided it was only worth putting into a 25c tray (?)...well to me that adds to the odds against it being genuine. OK the odds might be `evens' on the stupidity of a dealer. I'd probably buy it too for 25c but in the absence of being able to examine it up close and confirm its bona fides I wouldn't pay any more. Maybe the original poster got lucky though...as I keep saying, a quick check on the weighing maching should help tell.

Ian

 

Ian, indeed I can understand every single painful point as you have said. It is true that no coins is any longer safe from being counterfeited and perhaps, ridicious modern commemorative coins will be counterfeited too if the prices are right.

Honestly, what does worry me is how low can this counterfeiters go. One of the counterfeits that I have in my collection is a Malaysian 20 sen, which is just a merely 5USD cents!!! Although again I must stress that modern counterfeited coins should not be circulated if you know it is fake, nor considered as "collectable", although it might be very interesting for study purposes.

Indeed, it is funny how the world decided to deal with counterfeited coins. Counterfeited gold-plated platinum coins are always an excellent example, together with the Swedish 5 kopek pieces. Perhaps, because they were so harshly dealt with and removed from circulation when spotted, that make such coins valuable, as they managed to circulate and still remain available for sale?

The best several tests against counterfeited coins of course is what Ian have mentioned but lately, modern counterfeiting trends are exceeding worrying as counterfeiters themselves have the knowledge of what went wrong for them. They know how to melt down previous coinages just to fix the alloy content, and there are data tables of what the coin specifications should be. Although it is said to be difficult to handle, it no longer is necessarily true, specially when it comes down to the notorious counterfeited Italian coins.

I really wonder if there is a major revolution against counterfeiting coins, such as hologram coins, but that has already been defeated.

 

Talking of fake sovereigns i have a first hand (or i believe a first hand experience of this). I was in a jewelry shop looking through their half sovereigns (i don't generally make a habit of this due to the fact that the coins are often overprices, cleaned and junk but hey i was killing time). Anyhow they had about 6 or 7 1911 half sovereigns sat there. So i looked at the first one and i saw a black circular mark running adjacent to the head of Geo V on the obverse, i though nothing of it thinking it was just grime buildup perhaps in a scratch of something, i didn't really take much notice. Then i picked up the next one and it had the same kind of circular mark in exactly the same place, and the next, and the next... heck they were all identical, alarm bells ringing away to me, all duds no doubt?

 

Firstly, I would recommend anyone interested to check out and read thoroughly the following web page. It is useful in gaining a perspective.

http://www.24carat.co.uk/counterfeitcoinsframe.html

The only protection available is knowledge, coupled with experience....and even then......

Some may disagree with me, but to me it is far better to actively err on the side of caution than passively become an unwitting collector of counterfeits.

As always, there are bargains to be had out there, but not everyone wins the lottery. ;-)

The architypal words of wisdom that spring to mind are...`if you don't know your coins, you'd better know you're dealer'; `buy the book before you buy the coin'; `there is no Santa Claus in numismatics'; `if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then......'. Gosh isn't it amazing how many of these tritee sayings you pick up along the way. Mind you, I just wish i'd paid heed to a few of them myself at times.... before parting with my hard earned cash. My counterfeit collection started as a direct result of a few purchasing mistakes...and generally having been green.

Ian

 

Maybe the seller had a good explanation for the consistency of markings (?) Then again,...... probably not.

A `barge pole' job there methinks, and a smart move to leave them in the tray.

Probably thin gold plate on a silver base. It is fairly typical for black marks (tarnish) to appear on gold plated silver, but it usually takes years for it to show through, so chances are that if they were fakes they weren't made yesterday.

 

I wouldn't have bought them anyhow they were only VF grade (and charging £50. EF perhaps at a push but £50 at VF, forget it!) . Although it was tough to tell if it was all wear or some weak strike issues (another potential sign of a dud). Good experience from my point of view though.

In response to GX i have to say whilst i cringe at the thought of all those rare or collectible gold coins (and silver etc.) being forged, i have to say i'm very thankful that alot of the circulating currency is being counterfeited. It's a cheap way to familiarise yourself with fakes and how to spot them. Since the plethora of fake £1 coins have been doing the rounds i've learned how to pick out what features characterises a low quality to average fake, these days they just scream fake, even though i can't always explain why!

Although i have to say top quality fakes though would still totally fool me, me and quite a few dealers i should think.

 

Coin in Question

I just got a chance to get by a jeweler and have it weighed. 4.3 g. Is this the correct weight for this coin?

 

Many top quality fakes lay undiscovered in famous collections for decades. Possibly some still do. It is no shame to be taken in by a quality fake. You would be in very good company there I can assure you!

It is however shamefull (IMHO) for a collector to be taken by a well documented fake. Especially given the information that is now available concerning them.....and how to avoid them. :smile

The best fakes of course are the ones that have yet to be discovered. I only hope I don't discover any in my collection that I'm not already aware of

Ian

 

Yes, that weight is nigh on `spot on' for that coin type.

Ian

 

Okay - it passes the first test.

That only proves that it could be genuine, not that it is.

Remember, a single characteristic such as weight can conclusively prove that something is fake, but it is only one factor to consider in attributing it as genuine. For example, if a coin is worth 50x it's bullion value, there's still a lot of money to be made by counterfeiters who make it out of the proper metal, insuring a valid weight.

 

GDJMSP, i'm confused over what the weight of the coin is supposed to be. Such 5 rubles minted in the era of Nicholai II from 1897-1911 is minted in a reduced size from the Alexander III era as there were indications of economic troubles in Russia that is going to erupt.

What happened was that in 1897, the old 5 ruble was deemed to be worth 7.5 rubles (indication of inflation) and hence minted in the same size.

A typical 5 rubles minted during Alexsander III from 1886-1896 were minted in 86.4% purity and the mass of such is 6.45grams. On the other hand, 5 rubles minted during Nicholai II were indeed minted in the same purity, but instead 4.30grams. Of course, the one year type of the 7.5 rubles were minted in 86.4% purity and mass is 6.45 grams. (same as previous 5 rubles)

Hope that helped

 

Hi Doug,

:smile I'm currently looking at the 2nd edition 19th Century Krause Mischler Standard Catalogue of World Coins page 957. Very top left of the page has dates for the 5 roubles up to 1896 listed as A61 (6.4516 g / .1867 oz agw) but dates from 1897 onwards listed as A62 (4.3013 g / .1244 oz agw).

Co-incidental to that, it seems there was a change to the standard in 1897 as the gold coin which was issued with a weight of 6.4516 g that year was denominated as 7.5 roubles (KM63).

I can only assume that you are using a different edition of KM from me. It appears that yours has an error in it or my one contains errors relating to both the 5 and 7.5 roubles.

The 1898 was second in the date run for the reduced weight 5 roubles. it was also the highest mintage by far at 52,378,000.

......None of which explains how come the original posters coin ended up in a dealers 25c tray. :kewl:

Ian