Featured Another "Family" of struck Counterfeits- 1826 C-1 Reverse Parent!

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Jack D. Young, Apr 6, 2020.

  1. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    I have posted a number of recent struck counterfeits, mostly early copper in this forum. Today's subject is based on the reverse of the 1826 C-1 and a still researched obverse.

    One of the recent examples for sale on the "Bay" is this bad "1810" half cent. Not only did the seller have this 1810 but a couple of others with the same overall appearance; unfortunately, I didn't save images of the group prior to the listings being removed but did some screen shots of the listings.

    One of the 1st things to stand out is the apparent strange date; upon further review the head style is incorrect for the date and is typical of the style of 1833-1835. The obverse certainly doesn't match an 1810 C-1 (the only variety for the year). I have noted (in red) a couple of interesting marks on the subject coin (hold that thought!)

    And the reverse is certainly wrong for the date but it loosely matches an 1826 C-1; the obverse certainly doesn't match any better to a genuine 1826. I have indicated (in green) some die markers for a genuine C-1 reverse; the die mark at "D" is a match on the subject coin but the "Zipper" marks (in red) are unique to it and not seen on the genuine reverse.

    As in the other "family" groups previously discussed and documented there must be more! And another Bay example is documented, this one dated 1809.

    Images aren't great for several of these but they are clear enough to make out the main attribution marks.

    The 2nd 1810 matches the 1st including a "scratch" from the 2nd "1" in the date.

    The 1811 is also a match, as well as the 1828 and 1829!

    Continuing the search for more examples and a possible obverse parent lead to these 2 “1835’s”, one from Ali, the other from the Bay.

    I have overrun my image count so will finish with a response!
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  3. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    As above, "the other from the Bay":

    The obverse appears to be a close match to 1835 C-1/C-2- may be the lead to finding the obverse source coin (known genuine coin on the right below)!


    So a quick way to identify these is to look for the ding(s) on the bust and the “zipper” on the reverse! Then see how many you can find- kind of a counterfeit “where’s Waldo”…

    Best, Jack.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
    mlov43, Dynoking, buckeye73 and 7 others like this.
  4. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    I like the listing for the 1856 Flying Eagle.
    I love the smell of chocolate milk through my nose in the morning.
    As for the half cents, to my untrained eye, they just seem to have too much luster as if they were minted recently.
    Mainebill and Jack D. Young like this.
  5. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes? Supporter

    Fantastic work!

    I know you have been posting mostly copper, but have you seen similar issues with Bust Halves? If you could do a thread with some of those, I'd appreciate it as that's where I spend more time.
  6. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    The listing for the 1836 half cent is good too, $59.00 buy it now for a proof only date.

    I agree the rev is based on 26 C-1, and the obv is based on the obv of 1835 based on the star spacing and the positioning of star 7 and the curl.
  7. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Thanks physics-fan3.14; I really have no experience with bust halves or have researched any counterfeits like these. Of the "family" counterfeits (which I consider intermediate deceptive fakes) I have documented half and large cents, a quarter and a couple of silver dollars. Even of the "super fakes" only one half dollar and it is a seated variety.
  8. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Thanks Conder101, it is always great to have confirmation from another with experience with these!
  9. Penna_Boy

    Penna_Boy Just a nobody from the past

    They will never stop. One of the problems I have seen lately is: They are getting better. And they are counterfeiting slabs to put their phony coins in.
  10. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    They have gotten better with the counterfeits Penna_Boy; I consider these an intermediate level of current fakes with the so-called "super fakes" in genuine TPG holders the next level up.
    Pickin and Grinin likes this.
  11. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the post @Jack D. Young. I have no experience with half cent coins but using a known real coin to compare, the thing that stood out to me was the head size and the stars. Pretty obvious difference. They must be older counterfeits as the ones coming from China now are much better quality.
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  12. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your note Mountain Man; there are definitely different levels of counterfeits coming in, from some really pretty awful ones I call "cartoon Counterfeits" that you can see as fake with just a Red Book to these mid-level ones that can and do burn novice collectors, to the really high quality ones like my 1872-S half dollar. This particular example has been in two different top TPG genuine holders...

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  13. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    It's scary how good they're getting.
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  14. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    It is always an honor to have a post "featured"- thanks!
  15. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    There are two guaranteed naked eye giveaways that these counterfeits made from 1833-35 obverses and used for earlier dates have. Jack knows what they are, and he thankfully doesn't tell. We don't want Alibaba to find out how to make more deceptive ones.
    Dynoking likes this.
  16. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Hadn't thought about the second one, but you are right. Two easy instant ID's.
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  17. shane83616

    shane83616 New Member

    The buy it now price seems like the best indicator that they were not real.
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  18. Dynoking

    Dynoking Well-Known Member

    I call them clownish when the hair looks like spaghetti. Thanks for another great post v
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  19. mlov43

    mlov43 주화 수집가

    Having to play a "counterfeit Where's Waldo" seems easy to do for this family of counterfeits: Just find uncirculated-condition half-cents selling for under $100!
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  20. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Agreed mlov43, but many of the listings are for higher prices or starting bids. This one sticks out as you stated and the seller was extremely argumentative and negative when I tried to explain what the issues were with his. His listings were removed after being reported, reposted and removed again; he hasn't listed them again since...
    mlov43 likes this.
  21. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    I was able to recover a couple of this seller's other "coin" images (obverses) thanks to Dave Waterstraat; you can see the common gash on the bust of these.


    And one more:

    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
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