Another Daniel Carr token for me

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Morgandude11, Jul 29, 2015.

  1. Bigpoppa

    Bigpoppa Active Member

    This the first time I can remember reading these facts in any past threads .. I would say that those are some interesting facts for sure

    It appears the case keeps being tested with no handcuffs being produced by any authorities..
     
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  3. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    This could all change if folks started filing complaints with the Attorney Generals office in the proper state. I feel this will happen once enough people get screwed. I'm not talking about the tokens. I'm talking about the ones that look like a real US coin but are not.
     
    eddiespin likes this.
  4. Bigpoppa

    Bigpoppa Active Member

    Ask for Horse Puckey and ye shall receive
    :)

    Here is an early Colorado Springs Coin Club 50th Anniversary piece, which I picked up from an early DC collector..

    What a gorgeous Horse Puckey

    Copper Satin Finish 39mm with Gold Gilt Coin Icon Center

    image.jpeg

    image.jpeg
     
  5. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    First rule of Guido club: "Don't talk about Guido club."
    Second rule of Guido club: "Don't talk about Guido club."
    Third rule of Guido club: "If this is your first time, you must buy." :) :)
     
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  6. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    I'm very conflicted over DC overstrike fantasy pieces. I can understand both sides. I own two fantasy pieces (Peace Dollar and Barber). I do not doubt DC's intention with the overstrikes; however, I also can see how having these in the marketplace could cause issues in the future.

    When I die, my siblings will inherit my collection. I have kept immaculate records; however, none of my sisters are in the hobby. They will likely be confused over the DC fantasy pieces. Unless they do their homework, they'll likely think them real.

    Threads about DC fantasy strikes are always interesting debates.
     
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  7. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    State of mind is inferred from conduct. I said that, already. I am sorry, Dude, but that is what you, and, for that matter, your "Likes," are not getting. It is not subjective. It is not a matter of, "I did not intend it, I mean it, I mean it, I mean it, I mean it." When an utter fool can see beyond all reasonable doubt these can pass for the "McCoy" the presumption is he can see it. Going to that element, his state of mind, that is all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2015
  8. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    State of mind is also inferential in law, as you know. Were it not for interpretative precedents, there would be no revision to laws, and that happens all the time. Appeals Courts interpret the INTENTIONS of law all the time--it is not only conduct, but the inferences and conclusions that can be drawn from said conduct--as in what was the intention of the person at the time of the action that is called into question. There are no absolutes--otherwise, legal decisions would never be reversed predicated upon precedent and previous case law. :) To me, this is the essence of how one sees Daniel Carr's work. The intention is clear--he's not attempting to deceive, and pass the coins off as anything other than what they are. Intent resolves the entire conflict, as I see it--there is simply no fraudulent intent.
     
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  9. Bigpoppa

    Bigpoppa Active Member

    MD,
    All I can say is that I want you next time I need a lawyer.
    Your response was simply magnificent.

    Thank you for taking the time
     
    Morgandude11 likes this.
  10. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Well, but that's what I said, his intent is going to be inferred from his conduct. You can throw out his subjective testimony on his intent, as it's biased.
     
  11. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    All this argument and the only conclusion I can draw is Daniel Carr laughs all the way to the bank.:D
     
    dwhiz likes this.
  12. Bigpoppa

    Bigpoppa Active Member

    That is a pretty big assumption, being we don't know all the time and costs involved to run his business.

    Plus anyone that does a competent job, whatever the task, deserves to get paid .

    I see my Dr for 10 mins every month .. He takes my blood pressure, checks my lungs and heart and I'm out the door .
    He gets paid a co-pay plus insurance billing ..
    Seems like a well paying and easy gig, but do we know the bottom line at the end of the year ???
     
    Morgandude11 likes this.
  13. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Tell you my little insight, this is great advertising. I never even knew of his business until I saw one of these threads on PCGS.
     
  14. jester3681

    jester3681 Exonumia Enthusiast

    Returning to the title of the thread... I scored three Carr tokens last night. These are from the 2nd Annual So-Called Dollar Fellowship. One each copper, brass, and silver. All are limited stampings, but the copper with the reeded edge is the slimmest at 19. Thrilled to add them to the Fugio restrike collection. Seller's pics - I got these from Jeff Shelvin, the so-called dollar guru.

    scdbo.jpg scdbr.jpg scdco.jpg scdcr.jpg scdso.jpg scdsr.jpg
     
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  15. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    @jester3681 , did you win those on eBay? I was looking at the listings yesterday and saw those same items. Congrats on your acquisition.
     
  16. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    I really like that one!
     
  17. jester3681

    jester3681 Exonumia Enthusiast

    I did. Loved the theme and they looked like finely struck pieces.
     
    JPeace$ likes this.
  18. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    I just ordered these two from Moonlight Mint. They are Daniel Carr's latest, and I think, beautiful issues (seller's picture, not mine, as just ordered):

    rmnp_ag.jpg rmnp_bs.jpg
     
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  19. numis cop

    numis cop New Member

    "counterfeit coin" means coin not genuine but resembling or apparently intended to resemble or pass for genuine coin; and includes genuine coin prepared or altered so as to pass for coin of a higher value. Any person who makes or begins to make any counterfeit coin is guilty of a felony and is liable to imprisonment for life. (not US rules, but from other country)...
    this is sticky business making coins that look like actual coins minted in a country and could cause problems both in the USA and as the coins get traded and sold could cause problems for many down the road...
     
  20. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    Only if the intent is fraudulent. If you intend to sell them as tokens and curios, and do not plan on selling them in the stead of US coinage, it isn't counterfeiting. It falls squarely within the hobby law, and only a very naive collector would be fooled by said tokens. So, no, the intent to defraud simply isn't there. As I said previously, the entire crux of the matter is INTENT. If one sets out to deceive, that is another matter. If one advertises said tokens as "Not USA legal tender, and not to be sold as such," there is not a felonious intent.
     
  21. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    If, as you say, it falls under the HPA then COPY is required on the coin. If it does not fall under the HPA then it is a counterfeit. It is just that simple.

    What you're talking about with intent, yes that does apply when one is selling a counterfeit. And yes intent to defraud is required in order for one to be guilty of illegally selling counterfeits. But lack of intent to defraud does not change the fact that the coin being sold is indeed a counterfeit. And the crime that is committed is the making of those counterfeits.

    In other words Dave, if you buy a counterfeit Trade dollar, knowing full well that it is a counterfeit, you have committed no wrong, no crime. And if later on you sell that same counterfeit Trade dollar to somebody else, telling that it is indeed a counterfeit and they buy it as a counterfeit, you have still committed no crime.

    However, the person who made that counterfeit, did commit a crime simply by making it. He doesn't have to sell it for it to still be a crime. Its mere existence, the making of it, is the crime. And the only way to avoid that making of it from being a crime is to stamp the word COPY on the coin as required by law.

    There is no "in between" Dave. It is one, or it is the other, and both are illegal.
     
    Blissskr likes this.
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