Androgynous ancients: Beautiful is beautiful. So what's changed in the last 2,500 years? My 1st Musa

Yes! Here's one with Herc and Di wrestling...


ELAGABALUS
AE19. 6.36g, 19.1mm. SYRIA, Seleucis and Pieria, Laodicea ad Mare, 218 - 222 AD. SNG Cop 372. O: IMP C M AVR ANTONINVS, Radiate bust right, slight drapery on far shoulder. R: LAVDICEON, Herakles and Dionysos wrestling; Herakles bearded on left, his club behind him; Dionysos on right, his thyrsus behind him; ΔE in exergue.

And from a 3rd century AD mosaic, here's Herc and Di having a drinking contest.

Mosaic pavement: drinking contest of Herakles and Dionysos (Princeton University Art Museum)

 

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Dionysos/Bacchus really didn't age well, did he?

 

Ha! I guess that’s what a life in the bottle will do for you.

 

Cool topic, post, and thread @Ryro!

My favourite Apollo (Faustina Junior, Plotinopolis):


And here's Medusa looking very male (also sans head); Amisos (Pontos) under Mithradates VI:

 

That is the best (Medusa) coin I ever have seen of that type - congrats!! WOW. Its amazing. I am so glad to see it. Thank you.

 

Here my very late post for this thread, a tetradrachm of Thrace, with Dionysus on the obverse. I have found this depiction of the God of wine, fertility and rituals very androgynous for most of the examples that I have seen.

The quality of the portraiture can very considerably.

Thrace, Thasos, Circa 146 BC
Tetradrachm
SNG Cop. 1043

16.53 grams

Ex Münzen & Medaillen GmbH Auktion 44 (2016) Nr. 119.

 

Apollo in movie star mode.

 

This Avatar is the one I always remembered of you. Although, I like your other line drawing Avatar, also.

 

LOL, yeah, agreed:

WOAH!

RR AR Quinarius 89 BCE M Porcius Cato Liber Bacchus - Victory- Crawford 343-2. Sear 248

RR Porcius Cato AR Quinarius 89 BC Bacchus Liber Victory seated S 248 Cr 343-2

 

Hey, you should be looking at youthful Elagabalus coinage. Use my Avatar image as an example...It's quite a soft realistic portrait- somewhat effeminate. Looking at the silver coinage you will see how the royal celators added a scruff and beard to make him more masculine. Not to mention that he was an ancient version of Michael Jackson..no seriously...think about..

 

Yep, Michael Jackson is a serious parallel to Elagabalus. Think you nailed that.

 

Elagabalus, according to the stories about him, wanted to change his sex. I don't recall reading any claims that he was a pedophile. Nor was he incredibly popular and beloved, except perhaps for a brief time before and upon his accession. Other than supposedly being gay, and being famous at a young age, how was he like Michael Jackson?

 

Well, okay, guess it had been a while since I had read up on Elagabalus.

 

Well, first off history is written by those who profit from history. The ancient "historians" are not much different. You can write entertainment or vilify someone pretty easily. And if you are the only surviving text well your tale becomes history.
I feel that historians attempted to twist a tale of someone who attempted to shine the light on all the "ugly" of what it meant to be Roman and make it more public. I also feel that Elagabalus attempted to make a huge cultural change by attempting to supplant and replace the populaces' religion. Granted Romans were known for being "flexible" in their religious rites. Attempting too much change and exposing too much of the taboos made him a figure for history. This is all my opinion but look to history for other examples.
As for MJ he used his position as the Mega Superstar to try and effect change as well. Look at the example of having plastic surgery to make him more effeminate, making him almost androgenetic. He attempted pigmentation changes, making him neither black nor white. He was living proof of attempts of cultural change.
I see a lot of parallels between the two.
Thanks for the question!

 

I agree that a lot of the hostility to Elagabalus probably had nothing to do with the sensationalist aspects of his sexual or gender orientation, but arose from his ignoring traditional religion and introducing an entirely new focus for worship. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on whether MJ's radical modifications of his personal appearance -- or his musical innovations, for that matter -- consituted anything more than an extremely weak parallel to anything Elagabalus did, or tried or wanted to do.

 

Now I'm seriously interested in getting some idea of what is extant in primary literature for Elagabalus. And Roman historiography more generally. If Classical sources were as prone to bias as medieval ones were, it's like, Yikes; swiftly followed by, Condolences. ...Just, Dang, welcome to the club.
Regarding MJ, I had the (intentional irony alert: ) privilege of hearing more about him, merely by osmosis, than I ever did about Elagabalus. (Along with, for instance, Whitney Houston, he provided that much of the soundtrack to the '80's. ...While I was listening to lots of reggae. Used vinyl was Cheap in those days!)
One, the reason he did the skin-lightening part of what he did to himself was largely reducible to vitiligo, a condition that attacks the natural melanin of Black people, eventuating in random, very pink patches of skin. The color is reminiscent of Black albinos, except that it shows up Anywhere --face or hands, for instance-- in ways that defy any sort of, may we say, esthetic consistency. Kind of thing where, when you see someone with this, you can't not feel sorry for them. Michael Jackson was watching his original skin color fall apart, and adapted the best way he had the means to, as a public performer, to return to any kind of consistency, this color or that.
Two, Please, can we just Lose the 'neither black nor white' construct? Just starting with ethnic heritage, there are Lots of people who are happy to be both. ...Which, in turn, is the diametrical opposite of 'neither.' ...Or last I checked. In a world stinking of false dichotomies (the immediate context among them), that Ain't one of 'em.

 

The world's leading expert on Elagabalus is Leonardo de Arrizabalaga y Prado, who has written several books in English about him:

The Emperor Elagabalus: Fact Or Fiction?

Varian Studies Volume One: Varius

Varian Studies Volume Two: Elagabal