Ancients: The First Official Coin

Isn't Google great. Hard to imagine using encyclopedias, and the intenet hasn't been around that long.

 

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Another Siglos. I saw this at a local dealer and HAD to buy it.

I don't usually see them this nice.

I'm upset I sold my trite but I ran into some tough times a while ago.

I'll get another, though. Hopefully in even better condition.

It actully looked like that, I'm curious if he purchased it from Robert Johnson.

(would be ex-CNG)

(edit: mine wasn't mint state now that I think about it, it was XF so I guess not)

 

Nice => wow, that's a very sweet siglos, RabidRick (congrats)

 

NICE! RR can you show the reverse? I love the incuse squares

 

Funny you mention; that was one of my favorite parts of this specimen.

I don't think the crappy phone pics do justice. There is a lot of detail on the obv.

 

You're right. The phone pic is crappy. But, from what I can see, the reverse is outstanding.

 

More details to follow, I have one of those early "Geometric type" full electrum staters you touched on in your post. I'm still trying to date the thing.


As always the photo is courtesy of the auction firm, in this case: Stack's. I have a hard time photographing coins. This piece weighs 17.32 g according to my Ohaus scientific balance. I did discuss this piece with Joe Linzalone who said it kinda snuck past people at auction.

The weight is interesting. The early Lydian staters standard was 14 grams. This coin was issued by the island Kingdom of Samos which I think was off the coast of Lydia. Samos' weight standard was far heavier than the Lydian one and the Kingdom retained it's identity for a long time I recall.

 

Great coin! Good luck dating your Samos stater more specifically... there is very little understood about that area of electrum. I find it quite appealing - it developed entirely separately from Lydian electrum, making it difficult to find detailed information.

 

Thanks for your comments and sorry for my delay in posting.

Your Lydian trite is really nice & historically very important. Like many, I've been looking at pieces at auction since the late 80's or early 90's and have rarely seen one that nice. Recently interest in these has picked up a lot. There seems to be conflicting claims between these and those that claim that the "striated staters" are the first true coins. Thru separate readings I've come across a statement (Herodotus I think) made in the 5th century BC, that the Lydians struck the first coins.

On the other hand, there is a dealer who recently wrote a book on the striated staters and who says that those are the first true coins. He also put together a private collection of several (out of a total estimated population of 12 ???) striated full staters. One sold on Heritage about 3 years ago and brought 95K. He claims that those are the first coins.

On a note of pedantic commerciality, there is a Lydian trite coming up for auction. I've never been able to buy a coin from this auction firm tho. The trite appearing is of later style and doesn't have the name of Alyattes (fortunately for me: bidders go crazy over those pieces). However, it's described as "probably struck under Alyattes" and is in superb condition. What do you think? Should I try to get it? How unusual is this piece & are there any guidelines on what to pay? The auction firm is noted for moon prices so I shouldn't get too attached to this piece.

 

This article should be helpful:
https://www.academia.edu/352435/The_Electrum_Coinage_of_Samos_in_the_Light_of_a_Recent_Hoard

 

Indeed, there are (at least) two large, competing schools of thought as to what constitutes a coin and what is deemed the first coin. I'd consider the jump from blank proto-coins to the full blown Lydian lions to be unlikely and do tend to agree that the striated types denote the first real coins.

However, in the spirit of completeness, my collection has an example of both the striated electrum type and the Lydian lion (the latter in two different versions) and the Ionian geometric type (although nothing from Samos yet).

I'm quite certain I know the coin to which you are referring and the collection from which it comes as I intend to bid on several other coins from the same sale. However, if the past is any indicator, the first part of this collection sold for very strong prices - I was shut out entirely. I have little to no confidence that I'll be able to acquire any of the pieces I'm looking at, despite being willing to pay record prices for them, which is a bit frustrating. I have had considerable success at this auction house before and yes, you have to pay strong prices (but for what is generally very strong quality), but this particular collection is producing some heated bidding.

This is due in part to the elevated estimates on the coins, especially when considering the 19% BP. While their trite is indeed nice, it isn't in once-in-a-lifetime condition and it will undoubtedly sell for strong money (even if it didn't move forward from the starting price, but I wouldn't be surprised if it sells for 7K CHF just because of when and how it's being sold). This later type is common enough to be able to wait for the right opportunity, or wait a few months to find another good example.

For what it's worth, I do find the signed trites (and other signed electrum) to be quite appealing, and differently appealing than the unsigned examples as they represent an additional development in the history of coinage. The signed examples are rarer than unsigned trites, contributing to their price, and are generally hard to find with a combination of centering, consistent strike, and most or all of the letters showing.

Feel free to reply here or message me if you wanted to discuss further!

 

Thanks Ardatirion,

The article was quite helpful. It went into discussion of a several hoards of the Samos electrum coins found and a bit of a discussion of electrum in general. A recent hoard of 12 Samos coins surfaced and are referred to as the 1998 hoard. This contained fractions and no full staters. An 1894 hoard of 18 pieces had 1 stater, weighing 17.31 grams. I weighed my piece with a scientific digital scale calibrated against an ASTM weight set and got 17.32 grams. Stacks listed the coin as 17.33 g in their auction catalog (Jan 5, 2012, lot# 267). The article mentions the existence of another stater at 17.22 g. These pieces were struck according to Euboic-Samarian standard, which differed from the Milesian standard used in Lydia & Ionia*.

Gold purity varied, declining from 83.9% gold in the Hektes (1/6 staters) to 46.4% gold, 50.3% silver, and 3.3% copper in the full staters. The copper was used to make the lower gold content in the larger pieces look more golden. I think someone at the auction firm told me that electrum could vary between 40-80% gold and that my paler piece appeared to be around 40% gold. I've noticed that paler electrum coins, visually appearing to have lower gold content, sell for much less than nice yellow ones at auction. In the case of Samos, however, all the larger denominations were made of lower purity gold.

I'd like to contact the author of the article and see if he has/ wants to include my piece in his monograph.

*In Northern Ionia another standard, the Phokaic, was used.

 

Hi Ancient Joe,

Yes, this is apparently the same piece. It's priced to open at 4500 CHF. My tendency is to research something a bit to find out what pieces go for and then attempt to buy something. At this point I discover that none of my research was useful and i have to pay 4X the highest ever recorded price to get something --which i am generally unwilling to do.

Usually I'm not looking for the finest known of any type and for a Lydian trite, can afford to wait 3-5 years for a good price/ quality specimen. Perhaps the Weidauer book would be a good purchase before pursuing these further?

Some years ago I attempted to buy what I thought was a pleasant but typical 14 g electrum stater of Miletus. This is the one with the reclining Lion. The piece brought 18K. The auction firm told me after the sale the piece was unusually golden & went to a floor bidder. Maybe they thought the piece was 75% gold, hence the 18K bid? A dealer told me that the recent (ca. 1980's?) hoard of those consisted of 55 pcs.

Another coin of interest are the Lydian silver siglos series, I've never been able to afford the gold in those.

 

This happens relatively frequently and is very frustrating. I have often paid a record price for a coin but never 4x the highest - that would almost certainly be evidence of a bidding war with someone to whom $1K and $10K are essentially equal. At that point, I walk away. I'm often relieved to be outbid significantly: being the underbidder is frustrating but I don't mind when I'm blown out of the water.

It is definitely a good reference book but written in German. You may want to consider buying the book "Electrum and the Invention of Coinage" by Joe Linzalone which covers these trites as well as a number of other types (and is in English ).

There have been a fair number of these on the market - the type with the head of the lion looking back is quite common these days. Many are in ratty quality but nicer VFs can be obtained for $5-10K and the nicest sell in the low five-figures. I liked the example Gemini sold in 2008: technically only a G VF but very well struck. I also quite like when the center punch is struck well enough to discern that it has a fox in the middle.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, the staters with the lion lying down and a lotus flower are extremely rare and worthy of their hefty price tag.

Indeed, these are in significant demand because of the King Croesus connection and as a representation of the first bi-metallic currency. The "heavy" staters are considerably more expensive but the "light" types are still very appealing. A purist would want one of both to be represented: I'm waiting for the right heavy stater - 2g may not make much of a difference in weight but the more certain connection as the earlier and rarer issue certainly makes it even more appealing.

 

Electrum and the Invention of Coinage does feature a number of important examples that are not published elsewhere, but many of the conclusions that the author draws are unsupported by modern scholarship. I recommend reading with a critical eye.

The exhibition catalog for the recent White Gold exhibit at The Israel Museum in Jerusalem is a much better synthesis of the current research.

http://www.imj.org.il/exhibitions/2012/WhiteGold/Introduction.html

 

I guess this would be the best place to put this newp. Now, the oldest coin in my collection.

Lydia, Creosus,? Half-Stater (siglos) after 561 BC. Lion attacking bull, radial countermark / double incuse
5.37g

Minted during the time of Daniel in a neighboring empire and probably still in circulation during the lifetimes of Xerxes I (Biblical Ahasuerus) and his great adversary, Leonidas I.

I love resurrecting 2.5 year old threads.

-Michael

 

It's a great thread, your new coin is wonderful, and I love your images!

 

The Galaxy note 4 does ok. Anything under 15-16 mm I have a hard time with, though. I'm hoping the Galaxy S8 that comes out in the next 2-3 months has better macro. One day I'll buy a real camera. ha.

 

iamtiberius => I love your new addition (our examples are quite similar)





... this is still my oldest coin as well (great thread)

 

I like the coin and your fine photography but really wish you had started a new thread.

I would love to see the software lock threads that have not had a new post for a long period (year? less?). In this case I read a lot of the old thread before noticing that it was a retread. It is always possible to insert a quote of a specific part of an old thread if it is really on topic but this thread was about about the electrum trite and not the bull/lion type. We may have had a thread on them before perhaps even one discussing how to tell the different sub variations and denominations. At present there seems to be a huge supply of trite of various types on the market and many are finding great activity in the high end sector of the hobby. Silvers of your coin's type, whether good looking fine or rough mint state, are not showing up nearly as often (or so it seems to m who would love to have found your excellent specimen).