Ancients: Specialties within specialities

On another list I read there is a discussion about rare Tribute Pennies of Tiberius. We all know that Tribute Pennies are not rare but how many realize that there are six major groups of them separated by such things as the design of the chair legs and these groups can be used to tell if a coin is early or late in the series. Quite frankly, I do not care much about Tribute Penny legs but it is interesting to me that there are collectors out there who do to the point that they study the topic in detail.

On the other hand I specialize in the coins of Septimius Severus in the early part of his reign and am every bit as passionate about some minor variations on the common Julia Domna denarius showing Venus from the rear. Notice I did not say the Tiberius crowd should not flyspeck their TP's just that I have not gotten into it. I, however, notice whether the drapery that sort of covers Venus' rear drapes down on the right, left or both sides, whether the coin is Rome, Syrian or Alexandria mint and other details of style. Most people who recognize these differences would not pay more for a drapery variation; a few will pay more for a less common mint; only the lunatic fringe like me look for the oddities. 99.999% of people who own a Domna of this type want only one and probably don't know which way the drapery falls on their coin.

The question: Do any of you have a numismatic interest in a detail that is a far out as Tribute Penny legs or Domna drapery? What is it? Do any of you beginners see yourself ever wanting to develop an interest in something of this ilk or do you see it nothing short of crazy?

Five photos show two leg styles of Tribute Pennies and three Rome mint Domna draperies (Right, left and both). Be sure to distinguish between a right side drapery and the end of the palm on the Domna varieties.

Plain legs, double ground line:


Decorated legs, single ground line:


Drapery left:


Drapery both sides:


Drapery right:
Of these, only one is even scarce and that one will bring no premium in the market.

 

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She's got legs.....and knows how to use em.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nZniMYCZp4

 

At this point in my collecting of ancients I havent really developed any speciality within a specialty. When it comes to focusing on the little things like chair legs, drapery direction, shoes the fallen horseman wears...no. I do find it interesting that others choose to focus on something like that.

With me its lack of $ and mainly dont care. I appreciate thats what makes ancients special with different engravings & styles, but its really no different then modern collectors who build sets based on morgan dollar VAMS, die varieties of lincolns and so on. Some ancient collectors make fun of it I have seen over the years but things like chair legs is no different when you think about it.

 

I have to agree with Mat. I don't have any specialty, let alone a specialty within another. Like our outspoken lil buddy, I buy Ancients cause I like what I see. Also, as Anoob might say, a coin that calls out to me. Of course I say all this and lately I have been focusing on RR coins or coins of the First centuries BC and AD.

 

I should also very much like to add my Julia Domna with Venus reverse:

 

A beautiful example of the right drapery, Rome mint variation

 

I second this. I collect only pieces that have appealing relief and design. Obviously this means most of the pieces I like are out of my price range, but hey, most things are!

 

Oops clicked on wrong reply button, that last one was for Mat.

 

ummm yah, I think that you dudes know which variations are winnin' in stevex6's camp!!





=> bring-on the ancient porn-coins!!

 

Steve's is an early with the maiden gesturing with a crab claw like hand. Mine is later showing her with an arm wrapped behind the satyr.


There is also an intermediate much like the first but her hand is more human:
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=654690

There are probably minor variations available for study for most ancients if we look closely enough. Most collectors never specialize to the point that they feel the need to have each variationbut I'm sure Steve will search out the detailed hand variation which I don't have showing a distinct thumb making it look like she was thumbing her nose at the satyr. That should start a study of ancient hand gestures so we can learn if she was happy or sad about the events depicted on these coins.

 

i think it's cool that there are little differences like that...and i notice them...but i don't think i'll go activly try to collect them.

 

I own a very poor specimen of the Thasos coin, but here are three variations from the sellers on Vcoins:

 

Its now quite a specialty of mine yet, but I's like more FH from Arles,with ARL vs CON in the ex, and with this particular bottom. I used to own another and would like to own more, provided I get some moneys

 

I have a variety of specialities within specialities..

As a fellow collector of the eastern denarii of Septimius Severus there are several obverse dies with which I am attempting to obtain as many reverse dies as possible. For the IMP II series I am trying to get as many different obverse dies as possible including the IMP II, IMP I-I and IMP-II types. Within this series I also gather together multiple reverses of the same type provided thay have different legend breaks. I generally, though not always, try to avoid double die matches.

I also collect L. Papius, Griffin types and have several different symbol combinations. I have no intention of gathering the 250 odd different symbol combinations but let's see if I am saying the same thing in 10 years time.

Martin

 

Martin => man, I get so jealous when you unload your multitude of amazing Gryphon/Griffin coins!! (out-standing collection!!)

Here is my one example of that great series (wow, 250 different symbol combinations, eh?):

L Papius AR Denarius Serratus
79 BC
Diameter: 18 mm
Weight: 3.40 grams
Obverse: Head of Juno Sospita right, wearing goatskin, Snake behind (banker's mark on portrait)
Reverse: Gryphon dancing right, Snake/Dog (symbol 122 ... rare and unusual symbol), L PAPI in exergue
Reference: Syd 773, Cr384/1. Symbol 122







"Snake & 'Dog'?" ... ummm well, I think it's a dog?

 

I looked this one up in Banti and was a bit confused. The coin matches Banti Papia 1/149. Banti is only partly bilingual and the minor type descriptions are in Italian only. The reverse figure here is called Volpe (fox). It is one of two varieties under La natura: Rettili e anfibi (Nature: Reptiles and Anphibians). The other (Banti 1/150) is Biscia/Rana (non-poisonous snake/frog) so both fit the heading. 1/149 is Serpe (viper) so the coin made this group based on the obverse symbol. Looking at the reverse, I could see a crocodile rather than a fox and that reading would be consistent with the rettili heading but looks nothing like the critter Banti calls coccodrillo (which shares a coin with a hippo in the 'game animals' section).

Banti has photos of 188 coins of this type. There are some neat ones! I guess the series taxed the abilities of the engravers to come up with new types since there is one CCXLVI (246). I do not have a coin of this series but now I know there are some more interesting than others, I'll have to seek out a good one.

 

Is that 188 different variations of this coin? I don't own Banti so I can't check.

 

The current theory is that there were 246 die pairs made and that CCXLVI was the last. There are not 246 die pairs documented to date with about 232 known to those cataloging such things, such as the BM Republican coin database. There are unpublished pairs that turn up every now and then. I found one a few years back, which is still the only known example.

 

I don't think you have a "very poor" specimen.

 

I like my coin, but I cannot tell which of the three types it might be: