Ancients Easier to Counterfeit

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Christie21, Oct 23, 2018.

  1. Christie21

    Christie21 Active Member

    I have been told that ancients are much easier to counterfeit. Is that true?
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Mike Margolis

    Mike Margolis Well-Known Member

    Prepare to get a lot of answers on that question here! welcome to ancients on CT- they call the dark side. Coins have been counterfeited since there have been coins. The ancient "fakes" are called fourees. Some people love just collecting them!
     
  4. Dougmeister

    Dougmeister Well-Known Member

    Counterfeiting .. The world's 2nd oldest profession
     
  5. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    With ancient coins, every die was hand cut, so every die is unique. That makes it impossible to condemn a coin because of slight differences in appearance. So yes, it that respect it is easier. It is mostly a problem with higher-value coins. It's quite rare with lower grade common coins.

    That said, ancient collectors are aware of this and are usually quite diligent about reporting fakes and sharing the news with the collecting community. Are you thinking about collecting ancients? There are many people on this forum who are happy to help you get started and who can offer advice about how to avoid getting taken in by unscrupulous sellers.
     
    Silverlock and Roman Collector like this.
  6. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    removed by poster
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  7. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    Easier compared to what? I would suspect that the previous version of the British pound coin would be a candidate for the most counterfeited coin in history. At the end of their circulation there was an estimated that between one in 40 and one in 30 of these coins being counterfeit. There were in excess of 40 million pound coins in circulation. Many of these circulated without detection by people and the machine detection companies were kept in business trying to keep up with the counterfeiters.
     
  8. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    These days... It's unfortunate that folks will put so much effort into counterfeiting. I believe there may be a societal statement hidden somewhere in there but I'll leave that alone.

    I been a lifelong US coin collector. Being the family coin guy a Roman Fel Temp was handed down to me some years ago. I assumed it was a jewelry copy. A kind and generous fellow here in the ancients section confirmed my Fel Temp was the real deal..... His take made very good sense to me. "There are many of these pieces available for very affordable prices. So why got to the trouble of counterfeiting them?" I was a bit taken back. I had made the incorrect assumption in my mind that a 2000 year old coin was quite valuable. Now that I am a tad more educated on ancients it was pleasantly surprising that these ancient pieces of history are quite affordable!

    So then it stands to reason. Anything can and will be counterfeited. However, why put forth more effort to counterfeit something that is already very affordable?
     
    Alegandron likes this.
  9. Silverlock

    Silverlock Well-Known Member

    If you buy exclusively from reputable ancient coin dealers, counterfeits are things that happen to other people.
     
  10. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Yes, sticking with the reputable dealers and auction houses is the best way to protect yourself. Most dealers offer lifetime guarantees of authenticity so if that anything is discovered as fake it can be returned for a full refund. Obviously it is not in the best interest of reputable dealers to offer fake coins. However, there are dealers on Ebay that offer fake coins. One thing to look for is exceptionally high quality coins at low prices, this can be a tip-off. Also, some sellers sell under one name and then shut down, popping up under another name later. These sellers are the ones to be avoided. Certain geographic areas such as the Balkans are where many of these sellers originate. So steer clear of them.
     
    Roman Collector likes this.
  11. Ed Snible

    Ed Snible Well-Known Member

    @Christie21 your avatar is well-known "cute girl wallpaper". Are you a collector?

    I suspect ancient coins are easier because replica makers like www.antiquanova.com can get away with a small staff. The Chinese replicas of modern coins seem to require much larger operations with dedicated staff to maintain the machine that rolls the blanks and the coining presses.

    How big is your operation? Do you have access to a coining press?
     
    Craig Z, Valentinian, Ryro and 11 others like this.
  12. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    A few respects in which it is more difficult to counterfeit ancient coins:

    1) You have to replicate a couple thousand years of aging in a fraction of that time. Very, very difficult.

    2) We don't actually know in detail how ancient coins were made, and different series were made differently. So it's not possible to replicate that process just by looking it up, and as @dougsmit pointed out, experts will be able to tell the difference.

    3) The variation that @gsimonel points out is more of a curse to the counterfeiter than a blessing: a faker can't make many copies using the same dies, or the fraud will be easily detected.
     
    Alegandron likes this.
  13. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Yes and no. Like others said hand carved dies makes condeming ancients hard. OTOH, having tight specs and machine made in many ways makes them easier to reproduce, especially in volume.

    In the ancient coin world, coins are expected to be different from most others. So, a forger cannot produce many fakes from that one die or the quantity of coins will alert the market of the fakes. So it might physically be easier to make a fake ancient, but few can be sold. However, modern coins are supposed to be identical, so if you can achieve angood fake, then you can sell a high quantity without tipping yourself off.
     
    Beginner345 and Alegandron like this.
  14. Orange Julius

    Orange Julius Well-Known Member

    I’d like to know why the poster is asking. @Christie21
     
  15. gsimonel

    gsimonel Well-Known Member

    Doesn't really matter to me. Making convincing counterfeits is very difficult and capital and labor intensive, and you'll be competing with all the shysters selling fake coins to tourists at most of the archaeological sites in Europe and the Middle East. Unless the poster lives in a country with ridiculously low labor costs, it's easier and quicker to make money with ancient coins legitimately. Buy a couple of lots of coins and then sell them individually. Not only are you not ripping people off, you'll learn a lot about the hobby and history in the process.
     
    TypeCoin971793 and Alegandron like this.
  16. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Christie21, posted: "I have been told that ancients are much easier to counterfeit. Is that true?"

    Here is some advice for all of us. Don't take anything you hear or read as 100% correct. You see, there are various degrees of knowledge in any field and numismatics is one of them. Back in the 1970's when I started my profession career as a rank amateur :bucktooth: "professional numismatist" I learned very quickly that some of the most respected and famous long-time top professional numismatists were not to be believed (nice way of saying this) concerning many things. So, listen ask questions, and read but check it out for yourself.

    There is no final answer to your question as it all depends on the skill and experience of the counterfeiter. The Counterfeit Mints in Bulgaria (for example) have been cranking out fake ancients for decades so it must be easy for them.

    Mike Margolis, posted: "Prepare to get a lot of answers on that question here! welcome to ancients on CT- they call the dark side. Coins have been counterfeited since there have been coins. The ancient "fakes" are called fourees. Some people love just collecting them!

    Actually, this is not completely correct. "Fourrees" refer to a specific type of counterfeit ancient. These and casts are usually an indication of an "older" counterfeit. Die struck counterfeits are more often seen today.
     
  17. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Thanks to Insider for a post that needed to be posted. I had decided to give up and not bother because we have said what he said so many times on CT that it is obvious that there are many people who will just believe what they want to believe and there is nothing we can do about it. Just because it is in a book does not make it true. Just because it is online does not make it false. Just because an expert has 'Dr.' in front of his name (that includes dentists) does not make opinions into facts.

    My experience with fourrees is more extensive than most. I have about a hundred currently. I have never seen one that I believed was a modern fake of an ancient coin. Fourrees are hard to make but save precious metal. They were good for fooling the Roman on the street but if you were making fake ancient rarities, it would be better to make solid fakes for the money and effort expended. Casts are another matter. They exist in ancient and modern, deceptive and ridiculous or any of a number of combinations.

    I doubt this thread was originated with good intent. Check the original poster's other posts. Posts by Ed and OJ suggest they saw this as well. Still the question is valid. The answer is a simple yes if you mean fakes that will fool those who want to be fooled and less so if you mean fakes that are actually dangerous to the hobby and those who are not begging to be fooled.
     
    Orange Julius, Insider and Ryro like this.
  18. Silverlock

    Silverlock Well-Known Member

    If the OP’s motivation was to hear “yup, ancients are super easy to counterfeit” from a random poster on a forum before ramping up production, then I think we have little to fear.
     
  19. Macromius

    Macromius Well-Known Member

    Beginner345, David@PCC and Ed Snible like this.
  20. Mike Margolis

    Mike Margolis Well-Known Member

    Amazing factory for sure. A fairly newish poster here on CT who is always making threads asking about fake ebay sellers etc. just posted a new one of this dude: https://www.ebay.com/sch/vintage.intaglio/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
    all just a bunch of fake crapola from Thailand that looks or supposed to look like ancient Roman gold jewels etc. Wonder what that baement factory looks like?
     
    Insider likes this.
  21. Craig Z

    Craig Z Member

    @Mike Margolis do you think that new guy is always posting about fakes to get feedback from the community and what we think so they can tweak appropriately? Because I've noticed that too
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page