Ancients bigots: how they died

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ryro, May 22, 2022.

  1. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    I hope the title isn't confusing. Not that I feel we have bigots in the ancients forum and how they die. All of the bigots I've come across on CT are either moderns or that 1 mod anointed by the grand wizard. This thread is about how ancients that were bigots died:hungover:
    I'll start with Nero who did blame the Christians for the fire and had them participate in some pretty horrific things in the coliseum.
    When he couldn't get the courage to do it himself Nero tried to get one of his attendants to do it for him. The attendant refused so Nero did the only right thing for a cowering bigot and killed himself:
    0699a510-647c-11e6-a774-ff13af5d13cb.jpeg
    (How about that? Sometimes the trash does take itself out)
    1787244_1616945328.l-removebg-preview.png 2370359_1637247631.l-removebg-preview.png 2357747_1636989725.l-removebg-preview.png

    Next we have Julius Caesar.
    Oh, you don't think he was a bigot. I think over a million dead Gauls including this guy would have something to say about that:
    021279_l-removebg-preview.png

    Fearing his power was too strong for just one man and that after his Parthian campaign there'd be no way to stop him from becoming king 60 conspirators stabbed the vainglorious sob:
    2332875_1636126460.l-removebg-preview (2).png IMG_0296(1)(1).PNG
    gettyimages-587489068-2.jpg

    Of course Caracalla killed thousands of Alexandrians for making a play mocking his pretense for killing his own brother Geta (whom the Alexandrians loved).
    Don't worry the bat crap crazy Caracalla was cut down by one of his own soldiers while urinating by the side of the road:
    caracalla-death.png
    (Oh, if only all bigots and those that support them got the same)
    2554915_1644203802.l-removebg-preview.png

    Any other creeps that really got their comeuppance?

    Death to bigots!:punch:
     
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  3. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

  4. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    Hehe. I was gonna post him, as he was the first to come to mind, but was hoping you would. That story is priceless!:jawdrop::vomit::hilarious:
     
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  5. ValiantKnight

    ValiantKnight Well-Known Member

    I love my only Germanic kingdom gold, but not the ruler depicted, Sisebut. And I do not know if he died horribly/got his karma.

    From his Wikipedia article:

    “In 612, upon his accession to the throne, he forced his Jewish subjects to convert to Christianity.[3] In 616, he ordered that those Jews who refused to convert to Christianity be punished with the lash.”

    Sisebut, Visigothic Kingdom
    AV tremissis
    Obv: + SISEBVTVS REX, bust facing
    Rev: + TOLETO PIVS, bust facing
    Mint: Toledo
    Date: 612-621 AD
    Ref: Miles 183a

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    Ryro, The coin you posted of Nero is much too flattering o_O. The coin portrait below gives a better picture of this egotistical, angry monster :smuggrin:.

    Antioch, Syria Nero, obv. (2).jpg Ex Al Kowsky Collection

    For anti-Christian bigotry lets not forget Trajan Decius :smug:.

    Prieur 503, obv..JPG

    Another fervent anti-Christian was Diocletian, who fueled the hatred of Galerius.

    Diocletian.jpg Diocletian, AD 284-305 (struck c. AD 303-305) London Mint. Billon Nummus: 10.17 gm, 28 mm, 6 h. RIC 28a; C&T 3.01.005
     
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  7. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    How long do you think that avatar is going to last? Not long, I'm afraid.

    Caesar was no humanitarian, but ancient casualty numbers, especially for battles, are almost always highly exaggerated. Logistics and supplies weren't nearly advanced enough to support armies -- especially "barbarian" armies -- the size of the claims one reads. I usually take 1/10th of the stated figures as being more plausible. The "million Gauls" figure for Caesar's cumulative victims is equally dubious, I think, even though it's supposed to include civilians. I doubt that the population of Gaul was that much more than a million to begin with at the time.

    Here are a couple of my favorite -- although very different -- Nero portraits. (Note that even in the young, skinny portrait, he already has a couple of rolls of fat on his neck!)

    Did he (or anyone else) really feed Christians to the lions?

    2 Seleucis & Pieria Syria Nero drachm tripod & serpent from CNG 512.jpg

    Nero - Temple of Janus - As  jpg version.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2022
  8. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    I'll have to do some reading/listening, and let's be honest it was probably Suetonius who said it, but supposedly he used them as a scapegoat, or they really did it, and had them rounded up and put in the coliseum!
    2476162_1641764226.l-removebg-preview.png 2404842_1638355082.l-removebg-preview.png
     
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  9. hotwheelsearl

    hotwheelsearl Well-Known Member

    I think it's not unreasonable that Nero would have fed criminals to the lions. I think "fed" is a bit of a misnomer, but I do believe that some executions were ...executed... by putting the convicted in a ring with a wild animal, armed with some small, menial weapon like a club, so as to give him a "fighting chance."
     
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  10. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    A little off the beaten path, but Pomps the Great head of hair, possibly like his hero Alexander, was betrayed by those he trusted and dead before his time... that said, Pompey was a leading force in Sulla's bloody extinguishing of the Marians and with the his treatment of those in the east during the Mithridatic wars. But again, the man was literally celebrated for having the best head of hair since Alexander The Great!
    2217834_1632778050.l-removebg-preview.png
    pompey.jpg
     
  11. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I keep forgetting that Pompey was already well-known in Sulla's time. He started young!
     
  12. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status

    He was the only person that Sulla would get up and solute!
    And how can we not forget the man who created proscriptions?! Sulla very well may have been mad, but accomplished a lot while RUTHLESSLY paid to have all opponents murdered!
    IMG_2822(1).PNG
     
  13. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    I'm dissolving in tears of laughter.
     
  14. Once again, coming in on the tail-end of several discussions. Yet, surely the coins we depict here represent "History". History is what it is. The legacy handed down the ions of conflicts between cultures and yes races. The word "Politics" refers to the Greek origin of "polis" or "city" or it's relationship to the rest of 'the world'. We see Great Civilizations with great ideals come AND fall. Before Caesar we had the civil bloodbaths of Marius and Sulla. After Caesar we had Marcus T. Cicero (in writing) lambast Mark Anthony in the most vicious way. (For which his head and hands were nailed to the rostrum). One of the greatest Roman thinkers Marcus Aurelius could not undo what was to befall the greatness of Rome. Then the legacy fell to adoptive England. I think of it as I think of Opera-(I don't try to impose my tastes) only that to me these sorts of conflicts are put in an art form for us to learn from. A line FROM: "Jason and The Argonauts" (1964): "(Polius) to Hera (Honor Blackman) "Then why did Zeus drive me to kill this girl?" (Hera) "Zeus cannot drive men to do such things, that the gods may know them and that men may understand themselves.""
     
  15. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs Well-Known Member

    We could pretty much list any ancient leader (or ancient person?) on this thread if we are being serious. Many moderns too of course..

    Bigot: a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

    But what do we call people who involve themselves in a thread such as we have witnessed and somehow are on the side of the person who added THAT SYMBOL? Ironically being defended by that person?.... yet easily allow others to die on the sword?.. The symbol, which I assume would be offensive to them.. and act like nothing happened. I don't have an opinion. Best to call them nothing. . Live and let live.. freedom is a wonderful thing. Follow the orders and rules.

    I will add Valerian as I am sure he was quite bigoted towards the Sasanians in 260AD..

    upload_2022-5-22_23-58-18.png
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
  16. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

  17. Herodotus

    Herodotus Well-Known Member

    In my youth, like many a young lad, I liked to dabble in prohibited fireworks. There was always that one kid in the neighborhood that had that one uncle.
    There was the usual - Lady Fingers, Black Cats, M80s, Bottle rockets w/ report, Mortars etc.

    A favorite pastime with the other kids on the block was to get into Roman Candle battles. At the time, I never bothered to care enough to learn the origin of the namesake.

    Fast forward...

    When I discovered what a Roman Candle was later on as an adult, needless to state, I was surprised.

    For those that don't know, the Roman Candle's origin is from an account of when Nero would have parties and ignite staked Christians afire to provide the lighting for the party.

    I think that, and Tiberius with his 'little nibbling fishies' about takes the cake for extreme depravity in ancient times.

    This is my only Nero that I have currently. I picked it up fairly early on in my collecting.

    It's rather corroded, but I like that SPQR can be made out(better in hand) on the shield. I eventually would like to get another type featuring the emperor some day.
    [​IMG]
    Nero. (54-68 BC). Æ As. Lugdunum.
    O: IMP NERO CAESAR AVG P MAX TR P P P; Bare head right; small globe at point of neck.
    R: S-C; Victory, winged, draped, moving left, holding in both hands shield inscribed S P Q R.
    RIC I 543
     
  18. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    Nero Ae Sestertius 65 AD Obv bust right laureate Aegis on far shoulder. Rv Roma seated left on a pile of arms holding Victory in outstretched right hand. RIC 273 27.46 grms 34 mm Photo by W. Hansen neros6.jpg
    I have always found the later portraits of Nero to be quite interesting. The die cutters working in Rome during this period of time were quite skilled and when one looks at the images created for Nero and later for Galba, one can see that in both cases using very different techniques created an image that was both lifelike and yet imposing. With Nero the artist accentuated the broad planes of the cheek and neck to draw the eye towards the face. Nero's eye is alert and set under a massive upper orbital ridge. This along with a small firm mouth gives the image an intensity and seriousness that is rather remarkable. The whole image is then completed by the intricate and highly detailed treatment of the hair. Overall the composition is very impressive.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
  19. Clavdivs

    Clavdivs Well-Known Member

    Julian... a bigot towards Christians for sure. Yet an admirable character (to me anyway). Learned, thoughtful and ambitious. He stood up and attempted to stop the religious change (and the change of values) already happening in the Empire. He wasn't passive - he fought back, he wasn't from a people claiming "victim" and using it as propaganda, - he tried to turn the tide. Didn't work ... but what is admirable is that he fought. He didn't hide behind symbols and let others die on their sword.. he was there with them. Unfortunately after him it was never again for the Religio Romana.
    A very interesting character ...

    upload_2022-5-23_1-35-13.png
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
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  20. Mr.MonkeySwag96

    Mr.MonkeySwag96 Well-Known Member

    Julius Caesar:

    [​IMG]

    3.16g, 17mm Diademed head of Venus right Aeneas advancing left, holding plladium and carrying Anchises on his shoulder. "CAESAR" RSC 12

    Nero:

    [​IMG]

    3.00g Laureate head of Nero right "IMP CAESAR AVGVSTVS" Jupiter seated left holding a scepter and thunderbolt. "IVPPITER CVSTOS" RSC 119, RIC 53

    Septimius Severus:

    [​IMG]

    Septimius Severus, 193-211 A.D. AR Denarius (19 mm, 3.3 g) SEVERVS PIVS AVG, laureate head right. RESTITVTOR VRBIS, Roma seated left holding palladium & spear, round shield below. RIC 288, RSC 606. EF

    According to the Historia Augusta, Septimius Severus wasn’t fond of Ethiopians as he considered their dark skin to be a bad omen. Of course, the Historia Augusta isn’t considered to be a reliable source. However, it’s generally known that Severus massacred and enslaved numerous Picts and Mesopotamians during his military campaigns. Not to mention Severus’s brutal purge of his rivals in the Year of Five Emperors.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
  21. GinoLR

    GinoLR Well-Known Member

    I am sure many historians would beg to differ regarding Roman emperors called "bigots". This vocabulary is not History's language, it belongs to contemporary political debate.

    Of course bigotry has existed for long, and existed in ancient times, but Roman emperors were not solitary men, the Roman Empire had laws, and decisions taken by emperors had been previously discussed, at least by the emperors' closest collaborators. Political debate existed in Rome: it was strictly forbidden to disobey or even openly criticize the living emperor's orders, but when the emperor was dead or toppled it was permitted to speak one's mind about his policy and deeds.

    Was Nero a bigot? Or were those who hated him bigots themselves? And what about Caracalla? It is possible that ancient authors who wrote about him after his death did exaggerate things to make their point. And the Christian traditions, much, much later, are highly suspected of not being objective.

    What we call "bigot" today maybe meant nothing in Antiquity. I would say that the whole society was "bigot", for the strongest laws, either in democratic Athens of the classical period or in the later Roman Empire, were laws regarding the sacred, and the piety towards the gods. If you were accused of impiety, or of contempt of traditions, your case was almost desperate. Desecration of any kind was regarded as the highest crime, a little like in today's Islamic countries if you are accused of blasphemy. Such a behaviour was seen as undermining the whole social order - and disorder, civil unrest, was feared most.
     
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