Ancient Roman Coins?

Some are supposed to be silver, like #11 and 7

 

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Interesting. OK... So the plot thins. So now I'm actually starting to get curious as to who replicated these, where and why. I suppose the "why" is obvious... But that said, usually if folks know enough to replicate, they will know enough to at least use the right metal... or at least NOT replicate the ones that would require a more expensive metal.

So... Are these replicating Roman, Greek, Turkish... ? And what era? I ask because that may give some clues as to their intent for the replication. Again... In my experience replicators want to avoid people coming back on them. So if they go the distance to replicate they will attempt to get them as close as possible... Otherwise... why do the work.

 

Your Ancient Coins

Hi , maybe I dont know enough like you guys do, as I dont buy from auctions just for that same reason that there are so many fakes . But I have been finding Roman coins for 27+ years in England, and I do find coins with that brown Iron tint to them. Are they hoard coins???? There are a lot identical and every coin whether it be bronze or silver that i find are all different never identical. The reverse is not what I find but hey Greek coins have been found in UK , on my wish list. Did your coins come with any provenance. All my coins have that whether it be from a Villa or a farmstead or Temple site. I do hope they are genuine for your sake, Icouldnt tell you, if they are not then its a part of lifes learning curve, I am just an amateur who rescues ancient coins from plough damage, and I gain experiance from guys who collect all kinds of coins. :foot-mouth:

 

Definitely obvious fakes. You have what are supposed to be multiple denominations, metals, sizes, and weights if they were authentic. Like Randygeki pointed out - Lot 11 are supposed to be silver tetradrachms. Arethusa, Syracuse. Arethusa, Syracuse tetradrachms are coveted as one of the most elaborate busts on an ancient coin. If authentic, they can fetch thousands of dollars. All of your coins are the same size, made out of the same metal, are copies of coins that range nearly 700 years in difference, have the same type of incorrect legend font, and have a horribly replicated wear and patina to them. They aren't even made from cast dyes of authentic coins. 100 percent fake. They make for nice souvenirs though. Hand them out during history lessons.

As far as source of counterfeits, a lot of the modern forgeries come from eastern Europe ie - Slovakia, Estonia, Macedonia, Bulgaria, and somtimes Bosnia. They are very easy to spot, but typically go with the right size and metal. Which brings me to believe that the coins you have were never intended to be passed as genuine. Just as souvenirs possibly purchased on a "Holy Land" or "Mediterranean" tour for $1 a piece.

- Mike

 

A very qualified answer Mike. Thank you. With that, I would like you to view these next. They have not been cleaned, so I'm not 100% sure if they are silver. Perhaps 1700 years of Patina? Could you or anyone identify these and tell me if there is any suspicion with these. Also could you be as specific as possible. Thanks in advance for your help.

Pic 15 (Obverse)


Pic 16 (Reverse)

 

So where did all of these batches come from? There is no way they are shipwrecked coins, since there is dirt deposited on them deliberately to obscure the coin details.

You can see our nervousness, you have large quantities of fakes that you wish us to ID, all made with the same manufacturing methods. Its not like you have one fake coin you bought on accident. We already id'ed them, they are fakes. Any further id than that could only facilitate these being sold as authentic.

Hate to be a jerk, but I wouldn't want to identify the host coin on any of these either. I know what the two greek fakes are copying, I simply do not wish to say.

Chris

 

Thanks Chris. My intent is to fish for and qualify the experts. Anyone with a large cache of authentic ancient coins would not necessarily come busting out to display them to the world via the internet would they?

The fact that you wouldn't want to tell me that these are Greek Athens Syracuse Tetradrachm of two different denominations is understandable. I'm simply trying to learn and understand how to identify these as fakes at this point. Like I mentioned, I know these are supposed to be silver, but I dare not cut into them to verify. So my question remains, now that you have identified them, what makes you believe they are fakes?

P.S. You are not facilitating anything but education.

 

First, the larger is not a fake of a Tet. Second, style is the best way to tell. Many things are wrong in the design, the style, the flan, etc. Once you own a tet from athens, your copy is a poor reproduction. It would fool a tourist, but never fool someone who knows these, even if the coin was the correct metal.

Btw, as to why, there are many tourists who go to that area of the world and can be suckered into buying "ancient coins" for souvenirs. These are close enough for non-experts for them to think they are getting a great deal on a real coin. However, the Romans you posted were a little better, and I could see non-ancient collectors getting burned thinking these were real. That is why I resent them.

 

There are two things I loathe in life myself Chris, thieves and people who cut in line. At this point I intend to attend the Ancient coin clubs meeting tomorrow night @ 8PM on Snelling in St. Paul, bringing these two coins for further research and education. Perhaps I'll see you there.

 

I have a few ancients, and enjoy them. I will make a stab at the "wrong metal" assertion. Aged bronze and aged silver will show quite different patinas and even without cleaning, except for the most cruddy of ancients, the distinction between silver and bronze is moderately evident. Also the detail on your coins appears soft and the patina appears applied to mask this. There is a posting of "The nicest ancient I have ever seen" look at the detail on this coin. Many ancients had remarkable detail that has been softened by aging and corrosion, not just made to look that way. The guys who have replied to you are far more knowledgeable than me, and I tend to trust them. Take your coins to a show, meeting or dealer and let us know what they think. Examining a coin in-hand is a much better method of authentication.

 

I would love to see you there, but since I have to catch a bus for CICF I can't make it. Btw, social hour starts around 7 if you want to show up early and talk about ancient coins. Have John Haer or Jorge Lueke look after you. Can't miss Jorge, 6'4" blond Swede.

Chris

 

The larger one is actually an imitation of the Attica, Athens Decadrachm. Decadrachm meaning 10 drachm or 2.5 Tetradrachm. It is the largest, what some would call "common" denomination. Although, they are not common at all. If it were genuine it would fetch you about 25,000. Even in that condition.

The second one is what I like to call "The Face" of ancient coinage. It is the Decadrachm's little sister. The Attica, Athens Tetradrachm. It's the coin you see on the covers of numismatic magazines and the poster child for many numismatic websites that specialize in ancient coins. If it were genuine, silver, and in that condition you could easily get 1500-2000 for it.

Both are decent representatives of what those denominations should look like. But, again... very very very very much modern counterfeits. You should google the names I gave you to become more acquainted with them.

I have two authentic Attica, Athens Tetradrachms. One in horrible condition. and the other in fine condition with 2 banker marks on the reverse. (Banker mark - A mark set in the coin by treasurers and bankers with either a gouge or chisel to test silver content.) That one is on the way to my home. If i get it within the next week or so i'll post a picture on this thread.

Once you become more acquainted with ancients you'll soon realize the obvious signs in these coins that lack authenticity. Until then, I'm glad to answer any questions about them.

- Mike

 

These are the best pictures I have of the one coming right now. As you can see, quite a bit different in metal, shape, tone, wear, color, and overall appeal.

 

Even without the reverses I will bet that the second batch in the opening post all look like this one:-



The first batch in the opening post are all meant to be silver tetradrachms with that portrait of Zeus making identifying the type very easy. Another wrong metal here.

Regards,
Martin

 

Very cool Mike. As a US coin guy, I recently have been in a position to educate myself on ancients. It appears that there are tens of thousands of variations, and is going to require more than just a few simple posts. I look forward to seeing your future picts and learning more from you and some others about this niche. It will definitely ad a new interest into my current numismatic arsenal.

 

Thanks Martin. Yes this one does look like the second batch. However the ones I posted have a lot more patina. The one you posted does look like obvious rubbed in the dirt patina indeed. The ones I posted looks like someone went a little further out of their way to disguise them.

 

The above post says all that needed to be said. Thank you Mat.

 

I think these are fakes, they are all too round and perfect...