Ancient/Modern forgeries

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by randygeki, May 1, 2012.

  1. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

    I was wondering how often ancient cast forgeries had been condemned as a modern cast forgery and thought I'd see what some of you think.
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. Ardatirion

    Ardatirion Où est mon poisson

    Most ancient counterfeits and imitations aren't cast, so I'd suspect not too often.

    [​IMG]

    IMITATIONS. Antoninus Pius. AD 138-161
    PB “As”
    Cast. Isolated counterfeit
    ANTONIN[...]
    Laureate head right
    [...] COS IIII, Annona standing left, resting left foot on prow, holding modius and rudder; S C flanking
    cf. RIC III, p. 155 note

    Found in Spain
     
  4. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    The problem I see here is that coin could be 100 years old and still a modern fake.
     
  5. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I generally agree with the point Ardatirion, but I have seen ancient cast molds used by forgers found in Egypt. There were in some major auction a few years ago, so I definitely think cast counterfeits were a thriving business to a degree.

    Its tough Randy. I wish all countries had laws like UK so we could see the hoard records. those would solve all of our problems if we prove the coin was found "correctly".
     
  6. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

    That's one of the things that got me thinking about it.
     
  7. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Cast counterfeits - definitely. Lead? I'm not so sure.
    rx3880bb2110.jpg

    This is cast. I believe it is ancient but have no idea how to prove it. Molds have been found from Alexandria but that is far from enough 'proof'.
     
  8. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

    And these are the coins I'm thinking of. I could easily see these tossed in the "black cabinet" as modern with out much thought given.
     
  9. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I have seen what I comfortably believe were lead fourree cores that were ancient. Don't know if that counts though. Lead was really only used by forgers in Europe, not official coinage. I do have some nice lead coins from China from around the 9th century.

    I have never seen an entire ancient european fake in lead. While it can be shiny for a bit, I don't think it would fool many shopowners since its too soft.
     
  10. Ardatirion

    Ardatirion Où est mon poisson

    Doug, I can see why you'd be skeptical - lead is a seriously neglected metal. But it was actually quite widely used in the ancient world. Fourrees of silver and gold coins were sometimes, as Medoraman cited, made with a lead core, though not often. There were also fourrees of bronze coins with lead cores, most commonly seen in large Ptolemaic drachms. As far as official coinage, the Ptolemaic and Seleukid Empire struck scattered series of lead denominations ( see O. Hoover, A Late Hellenistic Lead Coinage from Gaza and Ptolemaic Lead Coinage in Coele-Syria), as did the Nabataeans (Hoover, A Reassessment of Nabataean Lead Coinage in Light of Recent Discoveries). There is also the popular series of lead prutot of Alexander Jannaeus. The main body of Roman lead coinage is the large series of lead tesserae (which I can talk about for hours!), although there are also medallions of the Rome mint (http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=76715). As far as cast or struck lead counterfeits, nineteen lead tetradrachms were found during the excavations at Seleucia ad Tigrim (McDowell, Stamped and Inscribed Objects from Seleucia on the Tigris). I cannot, regrettably, provide any direct citations to examples from the Roman period, but I did see about a dozen in the trays of the British Museum, there misattributed as tesserae.

    For various other abschlags, tokens, and test strikes in lead, see F. de Callatay, Les plombs a types monetaire en Grece ancienne.

    [​IMG]

    EDIT: Most erroneously disregard instances of lead coinage in the ancient world. I have read extensively on the subject - the main (circular) argument against its use was because it wasn't used.
     
  11. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I like lead and do think its a neglected metal. At least by the time of the Romans, though, they knew it could cause health concerns. The whole story that the Romans had lead poisoning because the aquaducts had large amounts in them was a fable. There was a little used in joints, but not enough to cause human harm due to the massive quantities of water that flowed through them. I believe a Roman architect wrote on the subject, and was arguing how this small amount of lead would lead to no harm, presupposing the fact they knew lead could harm humans.

    Maybe this had something to due with it not being used in most official coinage.
     
  12. Ardatirion

    Ardatirion Où est mon poisson

    Perhaps, but I think it's more likely because the coins would be so easily damaged.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page