Ancient: Gadhaiya paisa family portrait

So would it be attributed to the Silharas of Khankan, or the Ohmkara monastery?

 

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Traditional attribution would be to the Vaghelas.
The Chaulukya dynasty was usurped by the Solanki, and these around 1200 AD again were overthrown by the Vaghelas. Why traditionally no types are attributed to the Solanki is unknown to me (But maybe because this was just a continuation of the Chaulukyas under a diferent name)
Ohmkara and Silhara cointypes have a different reverse.

 

Thank you. Your expertise is much appreciated.

 

@THCoins, I have never heard of a firm Hepthalite power base in Pakistan ever. The BM book, "From Persepolis to the Punjab", states clearly there is not a shred of evidence to show any Hepthalite ever stepped foot in India, (meaning modern day India and Pakistan). Maybe its semantics, Red Huns clearly were in the region, Alchon, Kidarite, and Nezak. All three of these groups issued Sassanid derivative type coinage as well.

Btw, to say its unlikely that 300 years later the Chavadas would not know of the Peroz type would not be true. Its documented that as late as the 1960's these coins still circulated in Afghan bazaars. There was simply a massive coinage of these to pay tribute to the Hepthalites. So I imagine they would have been aware of the type, as well as living in the area of Red Hun imitations of it. They might have seen Hepthalite imitations as well, that is possible, or even seen what numismatists now say is a later derivative of the type that looks very much like yours attributed to Chavadas, but the Hepthalites were much further north. The Chionites, (Hepthalites), were a very distinct hunnic group who live on the NE periphery of the Sassanids. When defeated by the combined forces of the Turks and Khusro the Great, most of this group moved to Sogdia, so much so that within 100 years its nearly impossible to differentiate the Sogdian population from their Hepthalite masters.

 

I enjoy the discussion Medoraman ! You state there is no historic evidence the Hepthalite came into Pakistan. However, there is also no firm historic understanding of where the border of the physical and economic influence to the east was actually located. I agree the semantics of how we call each group is important. Unfortunately, that is also a problem in many of the sources, including the contemporary ones. I once was very much opposed to using the generic term "hunnic". With the difficulties to keep groups apart i must say i use the term more often.
I still would like to see a factual Gujarati coin that is a clear close copy of the Peroz base-type. I don't know them from literature, while there are Hepthalite ones. Instead, one of the basic design characteristics of the Gujarati coins is that they all have the narrow heads with long forehead. I think that it is much more likely that stemmed from the Hunnic intermediates. There is ample evidence that this headshape was a cultural archetype in "Hunnic" society which was also expressed in coinage.

 

I enjoy it as well sir.

As to the foreheads, please remember that it was the Alchon huns, and later Nezak huns, that had the narrow heads. Their coins issued in the sixth century, has always made me wonder if they were not the true prototypes, of this coinage. They also had fire alters on the reverse with attendants.

There is no "right" answer, since there is still many questions. The BM book, along with a PhD dissertation from a Russia student at a German university, (Tom Mallon had a link to it on his site before it went away), goes through historical references to huns and independently conclude Hepthalites stayed further north. I have always been suspicious, actually, of the types attributed to them other than the direct Sassanid imitations. THe later ones that looked like Gujarat issues were thicker than their Sassanid imitations. I actually feel they are more likely Alchon or Nezak coins. The name "Hepthalite" and their reputation is just so cool WAY too many things have been attributed to them. Most things dealers label as Hepthalite are really Red Hun items, like Alchon, Kidarite, and Nezak. From all that I have read, it was the Red Huns in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and were gradually absorbed into the local population. The Hepthalites were absorbed into the Sogdian and Turkish population further north, around Sogdia, Khwarizm, Merv, etc.

 

I agree largely to what you state here. Only the practice of skull deformation in the Pakistan region was probably already known in Kushan times. The inportance of the Alchons may indeed be underestimated. The most likely route for Peroz I coinage (or imitations thereof) to reach northern Gujarat is throug the route Kabul->Taxila and then south through the indus valley. So through territory first held by the Gupta, but then the Alchon Huns.
You probably already know this site, but for others interested in Hunnic history and their coinage: http://pro.geo.univie.ac.at/projects/khm/movies/movie7
This specific page shows the dynamics of the occupation of the region over time. Go through the homepage to find much more interesting !

 

I will check it out sir.

Regarding skull deformation in Kushan times, remember the Kidarites, (or whatever the name of this group was before Kidara), were on the forefront of the "hunnic wave", and displace the Kushans from first Sogdia and then Bactria. The Kushans, (yueh chi), were very aware of the Kidarites, having lost a great many battles to them. Heck, its very likely it was the Kidarites that intially displaced the Yueh Chi from NW China to begin with. I believe that is why the Kushans were very much aware of what a red hun looked like.

The Kidarites were somewhat responsible for Peroz's ill fated forays against the Hepthalites. His father weakened the Kidarites, and Peroz finished them off. He then thought the Hepthalites would be as easy.......

 

The Kushan themselves practised skull deformation. I do not know of any evidence that they took this over from the (Pre-)Kidarites.

But having discussed all this, do we already have a dedicated Hunnic thread with some nice coins ? I am sure we and others could show some nice examples to shift the Graeco-Roman focus a bit to the East ?

 

Hmm, I had never heard of Kushan skull deformation. If you have a chance, I would appreciate any references you might have on the subject.

I don't think we have a hunnic thread. AncientNoob and I have posted hunnic coins before, but never as a "Post your Hunnic coins" kind of thread.

Btw, I think its great we finally found a subject in both of our "wheelhouses", since before I was more a specialist in northern central asia, you more southerly. I did a lot of research on Huns last year to prepare a presentation on them to the Twin Cities Ancient Coin Club. Nothing is better to truly learn something than preparing to teach it!

 

We may have approached the subject from different directions but i think we agree the borderlands between cultures are in itself very interesting.
Some freely obtainable literature on the Yuezhi/Kushan, with also examples of skull deformation in this ONS article: http://www.onsnumis.org/publications/Yuezhi-Kushan_Hans-Loeschner_2008-04-15.pdf

 

In response to some comments given here an update of the starter picture, now including the original Peroz I. And at request also at a bit higher overall resolution.

All coins at the same relative size. The dimension of one tile is 3x3 cm.

 

Very nice! This is a handy reference, which I've saved. I've ordered another of these coins, attributed to the Chaulukyas of Gujarat. Will post it when it arrives.

 

here's a recent bargain bin purchase that goes along with this thread.



arab bukhara
abassid caliph al-mahdi
775-785 AD
billon drachm
o:sassanian influenced bust, arabic legend behind (al-mahdi), sogdig legend before (king of bukhara?).

r: heavily stylized fire altar and attendants

26 mm
2.5 g

coins of this style were originally sassanian influenced sogdian coins, with arab legends added after the arab conquest of the area.

while i was looking for stuff about this coin, i saw a few posts of the type made by members here a while back that i had missed somehow.

 

Nice coin! The obverse is a Rorschach test!

 

Fabulous...You guys know where I stand on these coins...

 

Huh ... still workin' this ol' thread, eh?




... just jokes ...

love ya, brother

 

Nice one Chrsmat !
You can also nicely see the amalgamation of cultures/religions in this one. Officially, there was acceptance of Islam and the authority of the caliph. But if you look at the fire altar you can also see a face looking right, where the flames are his hair. This is probably still meant as a representation of Ahura Mazda the ancient Persian central deity.
(Yes, i'm good at Rorschach tests !)

 

thanks everyone!
oh man, that's very cool THC. i kept thinking i saw a face in there but kept talking myself out of it

 

Heck yea Chris that Bukharhudat is awesome. It did take a me a while to find a nice one with the flaming head Ahura Mazda.

"Yes, i'm good at Rorschach tests !"


Is it me or is there not one but 3 faces on the reverse...The Zoroastrian Trinity. Whoa...look at the clouds, man....