Ancient coins confiscated by US customs?

I've not heard of coins being returned to a dealer when US customs refuses to admit them. Usually they are seized and offered to the source country. Some time ago a story was shared here where a group of coins from Afghanistan were seized from a collector and when they didn't go back to Afghanistan (IIRC because they didn't want a handful of honestly junk coins), they were given to an American university.

This is not true. It may not happen often with mainstream auctions, but the linked case happened before any MOU with Turkey existed. Even for provenanced coins it's not impossible for a seizure to happen. Most of the time, the auction house would refund your money for seized coins because most dealers who care about their reputation don't want to become known as that dealer but at the end of the day, only very old unquestionably legal provenance guarantees entry through US customs. In practice customs doesn't have the manpower to inspect 1% of all packages, let alone 1% of all coins, so you're likely safe but personally if a coin I'm ordering internationally doesn't have very old verifiable provenance known to me I always consider it a possibility, and a cost of building a collection, that some pencil pusher somewhere may decide to ruin my day.

 

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Do you bother to research any claim you make? The Native American artifacts market is far larger than the ancient coin market. Here's one example. They had 175k people visit just one show.

Yes, I agree that we're discussing a different matter, but if you want to keep the discussion on hand then don't toss out random thoughts that you proclaim as facts.

My feeling on the subject is that a customs seizure is something we should be cognizant of but not overly worried about. Yes, as @red_spork points out, it can technically happen on any order if you run into the wrong pencil pusher, but for the majority of us who order a lot of coins from Europe, it hasn't.

There are tons of things that technically can go wrong in life. This isn't one I find concerning.

 

I would like to know what percentage of coins won at auction or purchased from mainstream dealers, imported from Europe to the USA with proper papers, this happens with. (I admit I wasn't thinking about Afghanistan, Yemen, etc. We'll have to see how things play out with Turkey.) Yes, it's theoretically possible, but I suspect that it does so in far, far less than 1% of cases. I think it's even more unlikely with Roman coins exported from Italy, given the need for an export permit. Same with ancient coins exported from Israel, Spain, etc. I'd also like to know how often this has happened with ancient coins (particularly Roman coins) exported from the UK. So I really don't worry, and I think some people are being rather alarmist if this is their reason for never buying from European dealers or at European auctions.

 

Do you have any information about how much money is spent on Native American objects every year compared to ancient coins?

I’d be very interested to see how wrong I am about the ancient coin market being smaller.

People keep getting annoyed/angry with what I say but only after they interpret what I say to mean something else than what I meant.

175K people visiting a show doesn’t mean that they all bought something.

It just means many people were interested in seeing some of that stuff.

When I talk about the market being bigger for ancient coins I’m referring to how much is actually spent on them yearly compared to Native American stuff.

It has nothing to do with the culture itself but the historical fact is that Native Americans used more ephemeral materials for most of their stuff.

Go to Rome and you’ll see tons of buildings from ancient times because they were made of things like stone, concrete and marble that lasts millenia but that’s not the case with Native American buildings because they used organic things like plants & animals to make most things.

Same with their currency of cowry shells and such. A silver/gold coin is much more likely to last through the centuries than the shell of an organism.

It’s also important to remember the Romans & Greeks mass produced things like coins. Native Americans did not.

 

I'm sure it is smaller, especially if one compares it to the classical artifacts market as well. But that's beside the point as far as I'm concerned. Your original point was that there's no such thing as U.S. cultural heritage or cultural heritage laws at all. I did see and appreciate your clarification.

 

Geeze Louise.

From a person that needs to ask RE: 'Intra-country commerce' if customs is involved...

I've read quite a few ignorant statements from you in the short time that you've been a member here, but this one might take the cake.

And that's a fact.

 

You’re right I was wrong when I said that.

But the reason I think it’s relevant is because it’s not like other (Non US) countries are confiscating tons of super expensive Native American stuff and returning it to the US like apparently the US is doing for them.

It’s also important to remember that Native Americans were not the only culture. From 1776 onwards modern American culture has been the predominant culture but I don’t see foreign countries confiscating old American coins in their country and sending them back. That’s what I meant about no laws protecting modern American cultural objects. I wasn’t really comparing it to Native American cultural objects in the first place.

Someone in Egypt with enough money could buy any American coin they wanted no matter how rare or important (like an 1804 Proof Silver Dollar) and I guarantee Egyptian customs would not intercept it and ship it back to the US.


Sure America may not have as much history as ancient civilizations but that doesn’t mean it’s any less important.

 

There's a robust following and collecting base of native American artifacts and relics. I've personally witnessed it and seen artifacts sell for tens of thousands. Anything perfect and made of decent quality flint will bring good money from Ohio and most of the surrounding states. Whole slate artifacts usually bring in the thousands. You may not see the sale of these relics in the headlines, like you do coins, but make no mistake, there are many relics that would bring more money than a good many coins, including ancient ones. Many that 99% of the general population couldn't afford. Spouting otherwise as fact would be ignorant.

 

I’m sure that’s true but it misses the points I’m trying to make which is:

1). Native American stuff usually doesn’t sell internationally. Especially the big stuff. When it does I doubt it’s intercepted and returned to the US.

2). The overall market in terms of dollars spent for Native American objects is still less than the ancient coin markets.

You mention that some of the stuff sells for insanely high prices. But the same could be said for coins as well. Some ancient coins sell for millions of dollars. But I bet far more money is spent yearly on ancient coins than on Native American objects.


My overall point is that the US probably intercepts and returns far more objects (dollar value not quantity) to other countries than they return back to the US.

Especially in corrupt countries like in China & the Middle East. I doubt those countries return anything at all if a rich Chinese businessman buys it.

 

To the first point, nope. I already provided an auction in Paris where items sold for big prices. The Dahlem Museum in Berlin has a large Native American exhibit. Europeans are extremely interested in Native American culture because it's super-interesting to them. When I was a kid, we had an exchange student from Spain who's top goal was to see Native American culture.

In terms of intercepting and returning these items to the US, look into the pending legislation called the STOP act. If you support it, write your representatives.

I've looked into that, and it's hard to say. Clearly there's a lot more interest in Native American artifacts than coins. I personally know far more people who collect them, including my own parents who have spent tens of thousands - and those are for still extant/modern artists.

From one estimate, the market for Native American Artifacts was listed at $75 million per year, but that sounds low. Given that there's little centralization to the field, it's difficult to quantify it. The market for coins overall in the US is $5 billion to $8 billion, but ancient coins is only a tiny fraction of that. US coins is by far the biggest chunk.

Which one's higher? I thought it must be Native American art, but I couldn't locate reliable statistics to say for sure. If you count the global ancient coin market, though, then I would expect that to be bigger because I would think (but this would need to be researched) that the majority of sales of Native American artifacts occur within the US, while the majority of ancient coin sales are in Europe (and I expect Germany).

This is probably true, but I'm not sure what sense it makes to harp on it here. If you don't like it, write to your politicians: not us.

FWIW, many European countries have the same reciprocal agreements and are seizing the same coins as the US. Ancient coins do not flow within the EU with the same ease as other products.

 

This thread would make a great drinking game - take a shot everytime you come across an opinion asserted as fact. You won't make it to page 3.

 

I wouldn’t say it’s asserted as a fact when words like “probably” and “I’m guessing” are used.

 

Well, here's my two cents worth of opinion/advice.

It is incumbent upon dealers, auction houses and even collectors to be aware of current import restrictions pertaining to antiquities, including coins. It is a changing landscape, and restrictions, such as the emergency restrictions of February 2020 on artifacts and coins from Yemen are introduced.

Failure to comprehend these regulations can lead to a lot of aggravation and grief, especially for the buyer. Believe me, I've been there. Dealing with the uncertainty and bureaucratic maze of the US Customs Service is not my idea of spending a pleasant afternoon and a 60 days period. The process of detention is totally opaque for the buyer and the document that I sent them required at least a rudimentary legal knowledge to assure compliance with statutes and the stipulations in the regulations.

Know your auction house or dealer and make sure that they comply with declaration and documentation requirements. Buyers and dealers can access the latest import regulations through:

https://accguild.org/news

I'm sure there are other sources as well.

We can voice our opinions about the fairness of import restrictions. That is our right. But the restrictions are in place, and they do change. It is really up to the numismatic community, sellers and buyers, to be informed and to work together to assure a minimum of inconvenience, disruption and frustration when sending coins through US Customs.

 

Customs seizes things all of the time. Not just coins.

I had a friend who tried to bring back a few pounds of ham from Spain, it was confiscated by US Customs.

My wife wanted to buy some fur mittens in Newfoundland, Canada, but the store told her US Customs would confiscate them when she declared them upon return.

You can walk through the "Nothing to declare" line with ham, furs, and ancient coins, and probably no one will catch you. This is considered smuggling.

Follow Peter Tompa's blog. Every year you get chances to communicate your displeasure with these laws when the US State Department asks for public comments. It does seem weird that Italy allows Italians to buy and sell coins, yet refuses to offer export licenses for many of the same types of coins, putting US Customs under the burden of enforcing Italy's policies. Yet that is the situation we have.

 

Thats a fair point. I just feel like lately foreign governments have been using laws to take wealth from foreign citizens & companies in an unjust manner.

Especially when you factor in the other stuff.

Like lately how many of the European countries are constantly suing Google, Facebook, Apple etc., and then demanding huge fines.

It’s like they need money but don’t want to take it from their own citizens so they take it in other ingenious ways without making it look obvious.

As far as “cultural artifacts” I think they should at least pay fair market value if those artifacts are so important to their culture.

However when there are hundreds or thousands or more of a coin I don’t see why they would need to demand the return of such coins.

I mean it’s one thing if it’s something like the Eglin Marbles in the British Museum that were taken from the Parthenon itself without paperwork when Greece was under Ottoman control. That’s something that’s one of a kind so I understand why they want those back.

But demanding the return of things like say a denarius of Julius Caesar or a gold stater of Lysimachus when there are so many out there just seems like a cash grab. They know they are worth a lot of money so of course they want it. It’s all about money not cultural heritage.

 

Not exactly this way: Italian law theoretically allows citizens possess ancient coins, but courts often seize regularly purchased coins (also from abroad!) declaring them property of the State unless you can give evidence of provenance before 1909 (correct, 1909). That should mean that only with such provenance export of ancient coins should be permitted, but obviously this is impossible. So, no blue skies here too.

 

I think it's incumbent on all of us to keep abreast of changes in export rules by country and jurisdiction. It would be nice if there was a centralized place on the web holding this information, rather than bits and pieces of info floating around from all over the world. So far I have had nothing seized, but I've only purchased one coin from Italy and that was several years ago before the current MOU was in effect.

 

Classic troll move. Take a discussion that's been about coins and innocently add in "and companies".

The standard troll transition. It's time to broaden the discussion.

Now we're "full troll." Add a random statement about a subject the troll has little knowledge in the hopes of generating another maelstrom of comments.

Standard rule in the troll handbook. Now that the discussion has broadened, scale it back down to the original point in hopes someone will take the bait above.

Add another "I think" that doesn't really make sense, so those who are actually looting and trafficking are monetarily compensated for their illegally imported items.

Make another limited statement that because the troll hasn't taken the time to fully research the matter, but it seems wrong to the troll, then it certainly must be wrong.

Make a comparison between the main subject matter of this forum with something completely unrelated in an effort to prove the point.

Final step in the troll handbook: make a supposition that's completely lacking any support research or logic, but present it as fact.

 

Insurance is great to have, the only problem in this situation is the US department of Antiquities has CONFISCATED the coins. That will be a lost cause when applying for re-imbursement from the insurance company.
This isjust my humble opinion, IF YOU PURCHASE FROM AN AGENT/AGENCY OVERSEAS, if they cannot provide you with documentation DO NOT PURCHASE.
Hopefully none of our CT members get stuck holding the bag.
Semper Fi

 

I'm ancient but they didn't confiscate me...