Ancient coins and implied guarantees

I don't own a slabbed ancient and can only look on-line at examples of NGC slabs for ancients. I don't care about moderns.

Is there a authenticity disclaimer of any type anywhere on the slab?

I ask because it seems the average person infers authenticity of an ancient coin contained in a NGC slab. However, for one to learn that this is NOT the case, one must go to their website where they can find this at the bottom of the page



If there is no disclaimer on the actual package (slab) I believe NGC should read the Federal Trade Commission Act located here

https://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/supmanual/cch/ftca.pdf



I am going to float this for more than Ha ha's.

Call this an itch that I need to scratch now.

 

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I have one ancient coin that is slabbed, a nice Valens Siliqua. I don't plan on breaking out of its coffin anytime soon though, I'm too lazy.


Valens AR Siliqua, 367-375 AD. Constantinople.

DN VALEN-S PF AVG, pearl-diademed, draped and cuirassed bust right
VOT VX MVLT XX, in four lines within wreath.

Mintmark C chi-rho S.
RIC IX Constantinople 38b. Scarce.

As for NGC and their stabbing policy, C'est la vie!

 

As most everyone on this site knows I am not an advocate for grading ancients. The conditional grade that is shown is pretty much just the opinion of the individual grader, and is based IMO on nothing in particular. There are just far too many variables that would have to be considered. The only positive that grading could bring is a guarantee of authenticity, given how many fakes are showing up lately. I'm fairly certain NGC would never knowingly grade a US coin without some assurance of authenticity. Ancients should be held to the same standard, and if they can't do this then it's time to end the practice.

 

Since they do not guarantee authenticity, I see no reason to slab an ancient coin. I have bought two coins in slabs and have busted them both out of their plastic coffins. I bought them in slabs because I wanted the coins and they were both hard to find coins. If they were not so hard to find I would have avoided the slabs altogether.

Sometimes HA has some nice coins but I do not bother even looking anymore because I refuse to pay the premium for the coffin.

 

I'll leave it to the lawyers to argue whether an NGC slab is an implied guarantee of authenticity (I highly doubt it, though), but having written about this topic in other threads, I'll point out what I consider the difficulties and subtleties of providing a guarantee, and why I agree that NGC should not do this.

The most important question is: What exactly is meant (functionally) by "guarantee of authenticity?" Exactly how would such a guarantee work?

Consider this situation: A novice collector buys a slabbed ancient from an individual collector for $2000. A week later, it's conclusively determined that the coin is a modern fake. The novice collector contacts the grading service, who tells the collector that they don't guarantee authenticity, and in addition, similar coins in similar grades typically sell for $200 unslabbed. But since ancient coins are pretty much unique, the novice owner thinks it's worth $2000 because he claims it's a better coin than the comparable ones cited by the grading service.

The original owner who sold the coin is genuinely surprised but also asserts that he didn't guarantee authenticity. In addition, the original owner has no recourse against the person who originally sold him the coin.

A third party insurer (Lloyd's of London?) is willing to pay off on a guarantee but agrees with the grading service that the coin is worth at most $200. Alternatively, Lloyd's offers to replace it "with one of equal quality" instead of paying the novice collector $200. The novice collector isn't happy with this alternative.

As far as I can figure, there's no really good resolution here. Everyone acted in good faith; the collectors were simply duped. No third party -- the slabbing service or Lloyd's -- wants to be liable for the full price paid by a novice collector who overpaid for a slabbed coin. The second party -- the seller -- is blameless in this situation since he, too, was duped and in good faith represented that the coin was authentic.

From my perspective, the only way to offer a functionally useful "guarantee of authenticity" is for the dealer or auction house to offer its customers a perpetual money-back offer for any coins sold by the dealer or auction house that are provably fakes. This is what auction houses on Sixbid offer. They have (or should have) the expertise to evaluate every coin offered in their auctions, and have (or should have) the financial wherewithal to back up that guarantee. Personally, I wouldn't want a third-party guarantee on the coins that I purchase, since I wouldn't want to risk getting into the scenario that I describe above.

And I'll finish with a somewhat heretical statement on this topic: If I were a novice collector purchasing coins in a price range where I couldn't afford my dealer's involvement on every coin, and I wanted to buy a coin that simply wasn't available from a dealer who offered a guarantee, I'd most likely buy a slabbed coin vs. a similar unslabbed coin. My thinking would be that the risk of a counterfeit was lower buying a coin slabbed by a reputable service. I'm not advocating for or against slabbing ancient coins, I'm simply putting myself in the shoes of a novice collector and acknowledging the difficulties they face.

 

Yes, but I think you disqualify the implied guarantee to readily. I think they are being very misleading and I will be checking on that with the right people.

As for whether it is good for NGC to guarantee ancients or not, should not be our concern. Nor is it the laws.

If you are NOT going to guarantee it, then don't dress it up like something more than what it is. Don't give it the appearance of your guaranteed US Coins and hide a disclaimer on a website. THAT IS DECEPTIVE. I'm not yelling, just pointing out the deception.

Yes, that is my point. You would think that the risk was lower, but there is no guarantee, therefore you never know if the risk is lower. Dave and Barry are the experts on all coins. Wow, they are good. Hope it doesn't get busy there. But if it does get busy, what is the incentive to be accurate?? None.

Are you going to break open your slabs to check and then pay to have good ones re-slabbed when you go to resell.........because people demand it (based on false assumptions due to deceptive advertising and packaging?).

I much prefer knowing my coins have been handled by numerous people at the dealer or auction by numerous people, dealers and collectors. That is how you reduce risk. You don't hand them to 2 guys and then seal them for a price and a sign of faith.

Some people argue...I don't care, I don't buy them. Well you may soon be forced to, especially if you listen to the slab promoters.

Others argue, the price is insignificant because I buy high end coins. Well, nice solidarity with your poorer collecting friends. And get used to cracking and repacking coins when you re-sell.

Others argue.....focus on MOU's. Well MOU's are between countries and if you think fighting slabs is hard, then forget about MOU's. This argument is classic misdirection. Fight battles that can be won. This can be won.


Want know how important that implied guarantee is to their ancient slabbing business?? Try to get them to put that website disclaimer on their slabs.

I can "guarantee" they would never do that.

 

@Sallent is a lawyer, maybe he can tell us if NGC is breaking the FTC's rules.

 

Although it doesn't involve ambulances at this stage

 

If it gets to that point then we are in some deep sh$&@!
Still, he probably knows more about FTC regulations than most of us!

 

4to2centBC, let me start by admitting that I'm confused and puzzled by most of the statements in your latest post in this thread, but there are a couple of them that I think I understand and would like to clarify my position.

I'm assuming you mean "Nor is it the law's" (possessive) and not "laws" (plural) since that helps my understanding of your post. I'm not, in fact, passing a "good vs. bad" judgment on whether NGC should provide some guarantee of the coins they slab. I'm simply pointing out the difficulties in providing a meaningful, functional guarantee, and stating that my personal opinion is that an NGC guarantee would not be regarded as valuable by me as an experienced collector for those coins that I collect.

You may be missing my meaning here. Lower risk doesn't mean zero risk. That's my point. I would still realize I had an exposure to the slabbed coin being fake.

[Added later.] One other thought. You write "but I think you disqualify the implied guarantee to readily." (I assume you mean "too readily") In fact, I'm not dismissing anything because I don't assume there's an implied guarantee. NGC is a business that provides grading services, not authentication services. They could just as easily grade a counterfeit and be well within their business purview. It is simply that their disclaimer makes it clear that they attempt to avoid grading counterfeits, so if I were a novice, I would feel I'm taking less risk if I purchased an NGC-slabbed ancient coin.

 

surely the only lesson worth learning here is do not pay more for a slabbed coin than you would for an unslabbed coin in the same grade until/unless (which ever applies) the guarantee of authenticity is worth the premium paid for the slabbing in the event you wish to recoup your investment, (assuming the price of the coin remains static.)

 

Yes. typo. possessive I was watching the Euro Cup. This is not my whole life.

As you pointed out, a typo changed the meaning. I agree that it would be difficult for them to guarantee an ancient. But....Not my concern and neither is it the law's.

My point is that they are packaging and marketing these the same as the US Coins, which are guaranteed. If they can't guarantee it, then they should not be hiding that fact. I suggest it is hidden, because I continuously see shock from people when they learn Ancients are not guaranteed.

Once again, I suggest that your assumption that these two guys are better than buying from ebay.....may be valid...........but that is not the reason to imprison an entire hobby. Does it help for higher end coins.........I have to argue that it increases risk.

The rest of the post is me venting about all the apathetic excuses I see for rolling over on this issue.

 

Really? I didn't know NGC guarantees US coins. I'm curious how their guarantee works for these coins. Seems like a huge risk, to me.

 

Yup, they do.



Where is that ancient coins disclaimer??? Oh......some other page.

 

Wow, it only took a week for slabbed coins to totally take the fun out of this place!!

 

Wow. I'm stunned. They must have a high level of confidence in their ability to spot counterfeit US coins. Or maybe there are just a lot fewer of them.

 

Many people know this and buy slabbed US coins for a reason. They get an authentic coin at a guaranteed grade.

Neither bears true on an ancient. But that fine print is on a website.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself Steveo!!.
It still feels like a dig at a CT members character to me and I'd prefer it if the discussion went to PM status if a few of you want to lock horns over it. Why we cannot just agree that buying slabbed or not is a matter of choice is puzzling me? But heck, I'm not admin, so do what you think is right.

 

It is late here and I have had a couple of glasses of the red stuff.

From the NGC website under Ancients, this appears to be contradictory, or it may be the red...

Counterfeit Coins
NGC Ancients will only grade coins it believes to be genuine. Coins considered counterfeit will be returned ungraded with the note, "NOT GENUINE." Also, NGC Ancients will not grade coins if authenticity cannot be ascertained by our staff experts and/or our network of consultants. In such cases, coins will be returned with the comment "AUTHENTICITY UNVERIFIABLE." This latter category may include coins considered genuine by other experienced professionals in the field.

While we make every effort to rely on the best information available, due to the inconsistency of opinions on these matters in the marketplace, no guarantee is made or implied about the authenticity of coins graded by NGC Ancients.

Seems to me that if they slab it, they believe it to be genuine.

 

Give me a break. Count the number of US coin types and the number of US coin types that major dealers have never in their life seen. Compare these figures to the number of types owned by members of this Coin Talk group that neither of the graders have ever seen. I strongly suspect there are as many unique types of ancient coins as there are types of US. We have seen fine examples of disputes between experts on authenticity in both directions. In 1989, some top end dealers were selling Black Sea Hoard coins while some people were pointing out little problems with them that later proved to be justified. For the entire 20th century the one known coin of Domitian II was thought to be a fake but finding a second one in 2003 made it look like they had been wrong. Barry's hiring opens the (remote) possibility that the two NGC authenticators will disagree on a coin. I'd love to see that coin.

Adding an ensured guarantee on a coin like the EID MAR denarius would really increase the reasonable price of a certificate as if the current $2500 limit were not enough of a deterrent. How much would it change the $40 price for a $3000 coin? How would that affect the number of coins submitted?

Those who need absolute guarantees in their purchases need a different hobby. It is not a reasonable concept in ancients.