Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by zaneman, Apr 6, 2006.

  1. gmarguli

    gmarguli Slightly Evil™

    If you need proof that PCGS is inconsistent in grading, then I assume you’ve never submitted any quantity of coins to them, nor have you had discussions with dealers who submit to them. They are KNOWN for being very inconsistent. Most any dealer can tell you this.

    And if you want to trust the free market and dollars, take a look at where the money is spent on submissions. If PCGS is the king, then why does NGC grade more coins than PCGS? And why does ICG & ANACS grade a SIZEABLE amount of coins. If PCGS is so great as you say, can you explain why more than 2 of every 3 coins go to the other services?

    So you’re saying that if a PCGS graded coin brings $30 more in the marketplace than an NGC graded one, but I had to submit it 3 times to PCGS to get the correct grade, that I’m still ahead?

    I’m quite familiar with P&L statements. I’m also quite familiar with the grading services. God knows I spend enough money grading coins – at least 50K last year. I’m well aware of the costs of resubmissions and the awful consistency of PCGS. If you had any contact with some real dealers in the industry, you’d be fully aware of this.

    Correct, that is called profit. Now that page 1 of the Econ 1 textbook has been read it’s time to actually look at the numbers.

    You have a raw coin. It cost $1,000. It is a middle of the road MS65.

    NGC: Submission costs $30. You coin grades MS65. Total cost to you is $1,030. You sell the coin for $1,200 and make $170. This takes a month.

    PCGS: Submission costs $30. The coin grades MS63. You crack it. Resubmission costs $30. The coin bodybags for cleaning. Resubmission costs $30. The coin grades MS65. Total cost to you is $1,120. You sell the coin for $1,275 and make $155. This takes 5 months. Is this really a benefit to the submitter?

    If you think the above doesn’t happen every day, you are very, very wrong.

    I didn’t say they play games with the population reports, but rather they play games with the populations of coins in certain grades. Given your love for the 70 grade, you should know this.

    Question: How many coins have you submitted in total and to PCGS alone? My gut feeling is that you’ve never submitted a coin to any service and you think that PCGS is great based only on selling price of a few coins.
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  3. Midas

    Midas Coin Hoarder

    I never had problems with my submissions whereby I had to resubmit over and over again. Sure I had some coins that were body bagged by all of the services (except ANACS), but silly me...I should have caught that "whizzed" coin or "dipped" submisssion before I sent it. Another lesson learned.

    I have submitted to all of the services...or tried to.

    I like ICG slabs especialy with the Intecept Shield protection (best in the our hobby). For circulated coins and those graded coins below MS67, they are pretty much right on. they get a bad rap with moderns and too many 70 proof grades, but for the rest, they do a great job. James Taylor before he left for Anacs really convinced me to try them out. They have great service and all, can't complain. Unfortunately, the marketplace is not too kind to them.

    I submitted cleaned coins and varieties to ANACS. Service was VERY slow...over 3 months after they deposited my check. I haven't submitted coins to their new facility in Texas and tried the new holder. I'll give them a shot again...maybe.

    PCGS...I do submit coins to them. BTW...I have about 10 PCGS boxes laying around. Anybody want them at $4 each plus S&H.

    NGC...since they are based here in Florida, I drove to Sarasota on business for another matter and figured...what the heck, I'll stop by NGC with some coins. Now, I called them because I wanted 10 of my coins graded. So I figured I would set up an appointment and drop them off. Save on S&H and all. They told me they don't do that. It's not like I parked outside and walked in without an appointment. So I went elsewhere.

    So...yes...I have submitted coins to the services. Maybe no where as much as you, a dealer, but enough to get my feet wet.
  4. Charlie32

    Charlie32 Coin Collector

    I am sure NGC accepts submissions at their office. Maybe they were saying you didn't need an appointment...?

    Also check out Rare Coin Wholesalers add in the May 15 issue of Coinworld. Its headline says "The Greatest Rarities are Certified by NGC."

  5. gmarguli

    gmarguli Slightly Evil™

    It's not just the BS bodybags they like to hand out, it's the inconsistent grading that forces you to have to resubmit.

    While I don't really care for their slabs and think the intercept shield in unnecessary, I do agree that they get a bad rap, but do a decent job. I used to strongly dislike their grading, but over the past couple years they have tightened up to be more in line with the other services. Too bad the MS/PF70 stuff killed their reputation and they may never be able to build it back up. I recently got back about 150 coins from them and for much of the stuff their grading was on par with PCGS/NGC. They're a little quicker to hand out ultra high grades and they'll look the other way on problems using net grades a little more than the other services, but overall they do a decent job. For circulated stuff, they have been dead on recently. I've been able to sell generic stuff in their slabs for decent money.

    Hold off on anything going to ANACS. They have a lot of work to do to get things in order before stuff should be submitted. They are way behind and a little disorganized right now.

    Put them on eBay in lots of 3. Start them at 1c and charge $8.10 for shipping (flat rate box). They'll bring around $8 each / $24 per auction. I sold a ton like this a while back.

    Yep, NGC no longers allows non-dealers to drop coins off in person. It was for security. Seems fair as they checkout the dealers, but anyone with $99 can join their club.
  6. The_Cave_Troll

    The_Cave_Troll The Coin Troll

    yes, that is the conclusion that I drew from the data. The obvious assumtion that I made was that higher quality coins for each grade received stronger bids and lesser quality coins for each grade sold for less, but if that isn't the case then that would prove the point that PCGS buyers will pay anything to get the coins that they desire, which would make this whole discussion pointless. My assumption is partially faulty, but it will have to do for our purposes.

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I will make one final comment on this and I'm done - I've beat this dead horse long enough. It is my firm belief that PCGS slabbed coins sell for more for one reason - people are buying the plastic, not the coin.
  8. airedale

    airedale New Member

    ANACS Defective Slabs

    Did they ever do a recall on the tamper-able holders out there or just forget about them. That would seem like a good reason to avoid ANACS if they did nothing.
  9. Charlie32

    Charlie32 Coin Collector

    From what I've heard, the slabs are still easily openable without evidence of tampering. I won't be sending coins to ANACS any time soon.

  10. Richard01

    Richard01 Senior Member

    I have only submitted about 40 coins to ANAC's. I was happy with most grading, I think they misgraded a few (and I sent them to NGC and recieved grades that made more sense).
    However, that happens.
    My gripe was that I sent many of my coins 5 day express, and did not get them back for 45 business days! I called and sent emails and they admitted they lost them, then found them in the vault. Mostly move related. Fine... but they should have refunded the express part of my payment, or offered me something to apologize. They were very nice... but I was not offered any recompense... and I think I'll stick with NGC now.
    I for one love the new ANAC's holder, however. The coin is really easy to see and image. I wish NGC had a more clear holder...
  11. airedale

    airedale New Member

    Your new job at PCGS must be treating you well. I have not seen any posts from you lately.
  12. chasindreams

    chasindreams Member

    hi Charlie,,,I read your message about you sayin ANACS-SLAB HOLDERS, are easy to open up, without anyone knowing? I thought all Grading-Service Slab holders had it to where, to would be almost impossible to Crack-Open,,, without showing some kind of force , or markings,,,,,how are these Grading Services slabbing for security measures, anyway,,,,,Maybe Anacs ' needs to use a heavy-dose of (Super-Glue) so no dishonest or otherwise can open them ... If anyone knows about this, please post ,thanks so much ! In Adv/ chasindreams
  13. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU. This is exactly the sort of analysis that is needed.

    One of the concerns I have about this particular set of numbers... it is for a Lincoln cent, which has the designation BN, RB, or RD in addition to the numerical grade. I don't see any correction for that, since Midas didn't include that detail in his stack of numbers.

    That factor alone adds much to the standard deviation, since BN, RB, or RD sell for dramatically different prices.

    Another MAJOR factor to watch for when using Heritage's history to look for price trends... since ANACS places problem coins in holders*, beware when you see an ANACS price half of the NGC price. It's not because ANACS sucks... it's because that ANACS coin was a problem coin. That fact is hidden when looking at the big stack of numbers.

    That illustrates why NGC was wise to place problem coins in NCS holders... it distances the NGC name, brand perception, and value perception away from the lower value problem coins.

    * plainly and clearly labeled as problem coins
  14. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    ...and there are plenty of fabulous rarities in NGC slabs. Look at the big Power Player auctions.

    If NGC is inferior, why are the biggest entrusting their best to NGC as well as PCGS ?
  15. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Again, THANK YOU.

    The notion of small sample size, statistical irrelevance, and the tendency for anecdotal information to mislead is lost on many.

    Some folks will compare five or six sales, looking at slab numbers only, and draw far-reaching conclusions. What might be happening in one time and place, and one series / denomination, is not to be wildly extrapolated around the world.

    Just because you think you have a correlation for Frankies doesn't mean it works for Chain cents !

    What's more, most people buy the coin, not the slab. That's one reason there's so much standard deviation... not all MS63s are created equal ! Exceptional coins within a grade sell for more.
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