Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
An interesting point on Celtic coins
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="Curtis, post: 24818704, member: 26430"]It's more than just pareidolia. There are various design features in Celtic art that have been well known to generations of scholars (both of numismatic and non-numismatic art). [A few online references at the end.]</p><p><br /></p><p>For “<a href="https://celticcoins.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/HiddenFaces.pdf" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://celticcoins.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/HiddenFaces.pdf" rel="nofollow"><b>Hidden Faces</b> on Celtic Coins</a>” there is Chris Rudd, pp. 41-43, <i>Coin News</i>, November 2019. A couple figures:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1588759[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1588758[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p>Another important design feature is <b>"Cheshire cat design"</b>:</p><p><br /></p><p>the phenomenon in which focusing on part of the design (i.e., bringing it into the "foreground" of attention) requires one to disattend to another (i.e., allowing to recede into the "background"). It's the same phenomenon described in <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology" rel="nofollow">Gestalst psychology</a> of figure-ground relationships.</p><p><br /></p><p>Here's an example from my collection. I'll try to make it clear. But the same properties can be found in almost any Celtic coin -- that's what many of their collectors appreciate and enjoy about them.</p><p><br /></p><p>This is a Celtic-Thracian Tribal imitation of a bronze coin of Odessos, with a laureate bearded head facing right, as on the prototype. (On the reverse is a horse rider.)</p><p><br /></p><p>Prototype from Odessos (NOT Celtic; not mine, Munzzentrum 184, 56):</p><p>[ATTACH]1588755[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>On the Celtic imitation below: When you rotate the obverse 120 degrees clockwise (not 180', but 120'), there appears to be a left-facing head.</p><p><br /></p><p>This design feature is often called <b>"Rotational Symmetry."</b></p><p><br /></p><p>My example with features highlighted (sorry, not an artist!). The obverse TWICE, then reverse:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1588753[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1588752[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>Another example from the same tribal group, different dies. Again, the obverse TWICE, then reverse:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1588754[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>You can also see various natural forms used in design, e.g., a flower in the center of mine. Just the obverse this time (THREE times):</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1588757[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>Is that part deliberate or imagined? It can be hard to say for sure for any single shape or form whether it was intended or what all it might have represented. But Celtic art specialists agree that, in general, the "hidden" and "background" designs are a deliberate part of Celtic artwork.</p><p><br /></p><p>Look closely enough and rotate this obverse from a Celtic Tetradrachm sold by NAC and you may find many different images (including a rather large bird, a broad open hand with all four fingers and a thumb, multiple faces, others, and others yet):</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1588760[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>To the extent that pareidolia (perceiving patterns or definite forms in randomness) is part of the phenomenon, it would probably be more accurate to say that the artform exploited it to turn the reception a creative act of interpretation.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Some references likely to be available online that I've found useful & saved in my Celtic biblio</b> <b>(you may need to sign up for free JSTOR account):</b></p><p><br /></p><p>Doran, Brent. 1995. “<a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/20557307" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/20557307" rel="nofollow">Mathematical Sophistication of the Insular Celts: Spirals, Symmetries, and Knots as a Window onto Their World View</a>.” Proceedings of the Harvard Celtic Colloquium 15: 258-289.</p><p><br /></p><p>Frey, Otto-Herman. 2004. "<font size="4"><a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/25506218?searchText=jacobsthal%20imagery%20in%20celtic%20art&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Djacobsthal%2Bimagery%2Bin%2Bceltic%2Bart&ab_segments=0%2Fbasic_search_gsv2%2Fcontrol&refreqid=fastly-default%3Ad5c36c4342f0aaf186bfd873f0d255ac" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/25506218?searchText=jacobsthal%20imagery%20in%20celtic%20art&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Djacobsthal%2Bimagery%2Bin%2Bceltic%2Bart&ab_segments=0%2Fbasic_search_gsv2%2Fcontrol&refreqid=fastly-default%3Ad5c36c4342f0aaf186bfd873f0d255ac" rel="nofollow">A New Approach to Early Celtic Art</a>.</font>" <i>Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy </i>105 (5): 107-129.</p><p><br /></p><p>Frey & Schwappach. 1973. "<font size="4"><a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/124193?searchText=jacobsthal%20imagery%20in%20celtic%20art&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Djacobsthal%2Bimagery%2Bin%2Bceltic%2Bart&ab_segments=0%2Fbasic_search_gsv2%2Fcontrol&refreqid=fastly-default%3Ad9d07bbf7e4fa70f1164caec516b30f8" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/124193?searchText=jacobsthal%20imagery%20in%20celtic%20art&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Djacobsthal%2Bimagery%2Bin%2Bceltic%2Bart&ab_segments=0%2Fbasic_search_gsv2%2Fcontrol&refreqid=fastly-default%3Ad9d07bbf7e4fa70f1164caec516b30f8" rel="nofollow">Studies in Early Celtic Design</a>.</font>" World Archaeology 4 (3): 339-356</p><blockquote><blockquote><p>[<i>And on Academia from F.P. Schwappach's page:</i> <a href="https://www.academia.edu/3403778/Otto_Herman_Frey_and_Frank_Schwappach_STUDIES_IN_EARLY_CELTIC_DESIGN" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.academia.edu/3403778/Otto_Herman_Frey_and_Frank_Schwappach_STUDIES_IN_EARLY_CELTIC_DESIGN" rel="nofollow">https://www.academia.edu/3403778/Otto_Herman_Frey_and_Frank_Schwappach_STUDIES_IN_EARLY_CELTIC_DESIGN</a> ]</p></blockquote></blockquote><p><br /></p><p>Jacobsthal, Paul. 1935. "<a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/866191" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/866191" rel="nofollow">Early Celtic Art</a>." Burlington Magazine 67 (390).</p><p><br /></p><p>Jacobsthal, Paul. 1944. <i>Early Celtic Art</i>. Oxford : Clarendon Press.</p><blockquote><blockquote><p>[<i>not sure if this is online</i>]</p></blockquote></blockquote><p><br /></p><p>Olmsted, Garrett. 2001. Celtic Art in Transition during the First Century BC. Budapest: Archaeolingua Series 12.</p><blockquote><blockquote><p>[<i>Available in parts from his Academia</i>: <a href="https://cornell.academia.edu/garrettolmsted" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://cornell.academia.edu/garrettolmsted" rel="nofollow">https://cornell.academia.edu/garrettolmsted</a> ]</p></blockquote></blockquote><p><br /></p><p>Sizer, Walter. 1991. “Mathematical Notions in Preliterate Societies.” The Mathematical Intelligencer 13 (4): 53-60.</p><blockquote><blockquote><p>[<i>not sure if this is online</i>]</p></blockquote></blockquote><p>[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Curtis, post: 24818704, member: 26430"]It's more than just pareidolia. There are various design features in Celtic art that have been well known to generations of scholars (both of numismatic and non-numismatic art). [A few online references at the end.] For “[URL='https://celticcoins.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/HiddenFaces.pdf'][B]Hidden Faces[/B] on Celtic Coins[/URL]” there is Chris Rudd, pp. 41-43, [I]Coin News[/I], November 2019. A couple figures: [ATTACH=full]1588759[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1588758[/ATTACH] Another important design feature is [B]"Cheshire cat design"[/B]: the phenomenon in which focusing on part of the design (i.e., bringing it into the "foreground" of attention) requires one to disattend to another (i.e., allowing to recede into the "background"). It's the same phenomenon described in [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_psychology']Gestalst psychology[/URL] of figure-ground relationships. Here's an example from my collection. I'll try to make it clear. But the same properties can be found in almost any Celtic coin -- that's what many of their collectors appreciate and enjoy about them. This is a Celtic-Thracian Tribal imitation of a bronze coin of Odessos, with a laureate bearded head facing right, as on the prototype. (On the reverse is a horse rider.) Prototype from Odessos (NOT Celtic; not mine, Munzzentrum 184, 56): [ATTACH]1588755[/ATTACH] On the Celtic imitation below: When you rotate the obverse 120 degrees clockwise (not 180', but 120'), there appears to be a left-facing head. This design feature is often called [B]"Rotational Symmetry."[/B] My example with features highlighted (sorry, not an artist!). The obverse TWICE, then reverse: [ATTACH=full]1588753[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1588752[/ATTACH] Another example from the same tribal group, different dies. Again, the obverse TWICE, then reverse: [ATTACH=full]1588754[/ATTACH] You can also see various natural forms used in design, e.g., a flower in the center of mine. Just the obverse this time (THREE times): [ATTACH=full]1588757[/ATTACH] Is that part deliberate or imagined? It can be hard to say for sure for any single shape or form whether it was intended or what all it might have represented. But Celtic art specialists agree that, in general, the "hidden" and "background" designs are a deliberate part of Celtic artwork. Look closely enough and rotate this obverse from a Celtic Tetradrachm sold by NAC and you may find many different images (including a rather large bird, a broad open hand with all four fingers and a thumb, multiple faces, others, and others yet): [ATTACH=full]1588760[/ATTACH] To the extent that pareidolia (perceiving patterns or definite forms in randomness) is part of the phenomenon, it would probably be more accurate to say that the artform exploited it to turn the reception a creative act of interpretation. [B]Some references likely to be available online that I've found useful & saved in my Celtic biblio[/B] [B](you may need to sign up for free JSTOR account):[/B] Doran, Brent. 1995. “[URL='https://www.jstor.org/stable/20557307']Mathematical Sophistication of the Insular Celts: Spirals, Symmetries, and Knots as a Window onto Their World View[/URL].” Proceedings of the Harvard Celtic Colloquium 15: 258-289. Frey, Otto-Herman. 2004. "[SIZE=4][URL='https://www.jstor.org/stable/25506218?searchText=jacobsthal%20imagery%20in%20celtic%20art&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Djacobsthal%2Bimagery%2Bin%2Bceltic%2Bart&ab_segments=0%2Fbasic_search_gsv2%2Fcontrol&refreqid=fastly-default%3Ad5c36c4342f0aaf186bfd873f0d255ac']A New Approach to Early Celtic Art[/URL].[/SIZE]" [I]Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy [/I]105 (5): 107-129. Frey & Schwappach. 1973. "[SIZE=4][URL='https://www.jstor.org/stable/124193?searchText=jacobsthal%20imagery%20in%20celtic%20art&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3Djacobsthal%2Bimagery%2Bin%2Bceltic%2Bart&ab_segments=0%2Fbasic_search_gsv2%2Fcontrol&refreqid=fastly-default%3Ad9d07bbf7e4fa70f1164caec516b30f8']Studies in Early Celtic Design[/URL].[/SIZE]" World Archaeology 4 (3): 339-356 [INDENT][INDENT][[I]And on Academia from F.P. Schwappach's page:[/I] [URL]https://www.academia.edu/3403778/Otto_Herman_Frey_and_Frank_Schwappach_STUDIES_IN_EARLY_CELTIC_DESIGN[/URL] ][/INDENT][/INDENT] Jacobsthal, Paul. 1935. "[URL='https://www.jstor.org/stable/866191']Early Celtic Art[/URL]." Burlington Magazine 67 (390). Jacobsthal, Paul. 1944. [I]Early Celtic Art[/I]. Oxford : Clarendon Press. [INDENT][INDENT][[I]not sure if this is online[/I]][/INDENT][/INDENT] Olmsted, Garrett. 2001. Celtic Art in Transition during the First Century BC. Budapest: Archaeolingua Series 12. [INDENT][INDENT][[I]Available in parts from his Academia[/I]: [URL]https://cornell.academia.edu/garrettolmsted[/URL] ][/INDENT][/INDENT] Sizer, Walter. 1991. “Mathematical Notions in Preliterate Societies.” The Mathematical Intelligencer 13 (4): 53-60. [INDENT][INDENT][[I]not sure if this is online[/I]][/INDENT][/INDENT][/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
An interesting point on Celtic coins
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...