Featured An example of "grade-flation" lowering specific grade market values

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by johnmilton, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Tin_Man_0

    Tin_Man_0 Active Member

    If you think about it, a publicly traded company like PCGS is constantly expected to both grow and generate revenue. It's supposed to do this by grading RARE coins, there's your first clue. RARE coins are by defenition extremly limited in quantity. How then is a company expected to grow after grading nearly all rare coins? The answer is simple, get the customers to regrade. CAC is doing just that, by moving all the key members of not just PCGS but all the grading companies to CAC and now you have a new authority. If CAC is restricted to only grade the highest of the high grade coins, it too will not generate enough revenue to survive, so they will grade all the coins again to stay afloat and after that there will be another grading company that will supersede CAC to get people to regrade again. I wouldn't be surprised if they switch to a subscription based model service soon, if they can figure out a way to do that. CAC already kinda started that ball rolling with their Dealer Memberships.
     
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  3. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    Interesting, if the first coin's damage was on a Morgan Dollar, it would very clearly be an MS-63. The other coins would be graded lower, at least compared to the coins I've seen.
     
  4. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member


    1. I didn't realize that CAC forced anyone to buy coins. Assuming it could and does, then why not? It has forced itself onto those in the coin market who didn't want their opinion but must now seek it to sell coins.

    2. Third party grading is the biggest scam in the history of numismatics in my humble opinion. They offer to guarantee the grade of a coin only to water down the standards later. The guarantees have been in place since 1986 (PCGS) and 1987 (NGC), and both David Hall (PCGS) and Mark Salzberg (1987) have admitted that the standards have changed at least one time since inception. It is not to the benefit of collectors. If JA really cared about combating numismatic fraud, he would go after the services IMHO. The FTC even went after PCGS in 1990. Although some of it was their marketing, the FTC also accused PCGS of lying about offering consistent, objective grading standards. The case resulted in a consent decree.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
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  5. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    The relevant question is whether or not a coin is solid for the grade, undergraded, or overgraded. ANACS has coins in all three categories, as do PCGS and NGC, so there is really no quantifiable reason why CAC shouldn’t look at ANACS coins. Properly-graded coins in ANACS holders sell for a discount because of misinformation spread by people like you and the politics of PCGS, NGC, and CAC. That’s the only common denominator here.

    Say an ANACS AU-50 sells for PCGS XF-45 money. Then it is cracked out and graded AU-55 at PCGS. Same coin, the only thing that changed was the holder. Was the discount justified? Absolutely not since there was nothing wrong with the coin. Had it had a CAC sticker, then it would have sold for at least AU-50 money. Or, better yet, if a knowledgeable collector examined the coin and found it to be at least the grade assigned, he would have paid at least AU-50 money for it.

    Guess what, when people look at the COIN beyond the holder, properly-graded ANACS-graded coins are not sold at unjustified discounts. I’ve sold ANACS-graded coins at prices similar to PCGS-graded coins. The common denominator? The buyers examined the coins and determined that that they met or exceeded the grade on the slab.

    Coins selling for their actual values regardless of its holder, what a concept. It’s almost like if people were not willfully blind, we would not be having this discussion.
     
  6. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    You just succinctly explained the motive for grade inflation, yet some posters don't believe it exists. I would bet they haven't submitted any coins in the last 5-10 years.
     
  7. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    If Baseball's argument is followed to its logical conclusion, CAC would want to buy stickered ANACS coins at lower prices so it could cross them and flip them. The reality is that most of the old ANACS holders have already been cherry picked and JA doesn't view it as worth his time.
     
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  8. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    By world coins, moderns, add on services like TrueViews, international expansion and such exactly how they have been doing it for years now.

    This is so inaccurate and misinformed it's not even funny.
     
  9. CasualAg$

    CasualAg$ Corvid Minions Collecting

    Sounds more like money laundering...nonsense, nonsense, add-on nonsense, international nonsense and such. I hope you’re not their lawyer. I’ve seen Italian gentlemen imprisoned for less.
     
  10. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death!

    I will say that anyone who thinks the TPG's have "run out of rare coins," is flat wrong. I send in hundreds of coins each year. And coins out there waiting to be cherrypicked for their variety are innumerable.
     
  11. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Yes, but the supply of "low hanging fruit" is much lower. Those fruits are coins that are easy to authenticate, easy to attribute as the the variety, if it's needed, and easy for generalist dealers to sell.

    Whether is true or not, the TPGs perceive that they are in the mature phase of their product life cycles. Their easy alternatives are to push gimmicks in the modern coin series ("first strike," special labels edt.) or encourage crack-outs and re-grades with the older stuff. In order to get the latter, they have to water down the grading standards to encourage or force owners of those coins to have them re-graded.

    Getting into the variety attribution business involves hiring specialist experts, and there are not a lot of them. Historically PCGS has not been good in the coin attribution business. I've seen them blow "Red Book" varieties, which rather inexcusable. NGC has been better at it, but their generally loser grading standards have sometimes hindered those efforts.
     
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  12. Mainebill

    Mainebill Wild Bill

    Here’s a thing nobody mentioned. The cac sticker is actually an offer to buy the coin by cac too. They will buy stickered coins for a price. That’s standing behind their opinions. They buy and sell coins all the time as well. All in all cac is an independent dealer not a grading service. I find as a dealer cac coins sell better and for a premium and second tier service coins don’t bring the money as the big two. Personally I find pcgs coins sell stronger easier and often for more money. That’s not a personal preference. That’s just a market observation
     
  13. Mainebill

    Mainebill Wild Bill

    A couple months ago I was watching the trade dollars at a ha auction. They had a really nice collection of them including proofs. The ngc proofs were selling solid even with a cac sticker. A 64 cam cac was around $4k. The same grade and coin in 64 cam no cac pcgs was $5k. Add a bean and it was $6k. Granted pcgs is as a rule tougher on trade dollars and so is cac
     
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That they will. But at what price ? Have you ever seen actual prices that they offer for the coins bearing their stickers ? I have. And most of those I have seen are but a tiny fraction of what the coin typically sells for. I've seen some as low as 30%. And to be fair, I did see one that was 110%.

    Given what I just said, is it ?

    To me it's a lot like the TPGs and their grade guarantee. Yeah they have one, and they do stand behind it. BUT, and it's a big but, they are the ones who determine what the value of that coin is. And if they determine the value is only 30% of what you paid for it - then that's all ya get.
     
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  15. GenX Enthusiast

    GenX Enthusiast Forensic grammatician

    And as of July 1st 2019, everyone must resubmit all of their PCGS non dollars to see if they get the new Prooflike designation;) It never ends!
     
  16. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Coins like this would leave me quite unhappy of I were a CAC dealer who had to put up the money to support their offer. This coin should not have been graded by PCGS, let alone given a CAC sticker. The surfaces have been gone over with an abrasive, almost like a pencil eraser.

    1873 Dollar cl O.jpg 1873 Dollar cl R.jpg 1873 Dollar O.jpg 1873 Dollar R.jpg
     
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  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    What are you babbling about? Grading modern coins and charging for pictures is nonsense and money laundering? Opening offices over seas is nonsense? You really need to go back to school is you honestly believe the jibberish you just typed
     
  18. Mainebill

    Mainebill Wild Bill

    Agree. That’s an awful dog. Why it graded and stickered is beyond me. They all blow some though
     
  19. Tin_Man_0

    Tin_Man_0 Active Member

    Actually, it's Collectors Universe that has been doing it for years now, but we'll keep the focus on just coins for now. PCGS Adding services like TrueViews and international expansions bought them some time in those markets, but those are different branches. About the only latest trend I've noticed that PCGS US coin grading has come up with is the whole new sticker trend with "first strike" and "signature" and so forth and so on. This in theory could get some collectors to regrade, but it's probably not helping much. Even with those added branches, that doesn't mean there's always going to be more and more coins to grade at the rate they grade them.
     
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  20. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    They're all apart of PCGS which is apart of CU. It's all one in the same.

    You can't resubmit something to get first strike added. They don't need to force resubmissions, people like to keep pushing that theory but it is in fact nothing more than an internet rumor that people pushed and yelled about for long enough that now some people believe it.

    Yes it does. Modern coins come out every year and the world market they have just touched the tip of the iceberg for grading with the popularity increasing and in the long run slabbing will win out in those markets as well. There is also no shortage of US coins left, were probably about a 100 years away from there being an actual shortage of classic coins to grade and even then moderns will still be plentiful. There are still plenty of people cracking coins out, plenty of old collections that have never been submitted yet, and that doesn't even get into all the crossovers.

    Adding things like TrueViews (which you can get without having your coin regraded) are just ways to maximize revenue and incentives to use them, not moves necessary for survival. Video will probably come at some point too. Also with TrueViews only being $5 extra with the gold shield service the profit on those is minimal

    PCGS and NGC are both here for the long haul and will be around long after any of us are
     
  21. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    That's the type of coin I would happily wholesale to JA or his sycophants for Greysheet bid.
     
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