Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by johnmilton, Jun 25, 2019.
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1. I didn't realize that CAC forced anyone to buy coins. Assuming it could and does, then why not? It has forced itself onto those in the coin market who didn't want their opinion but must now seek it to sell coins.
2. Third party grading is the biggest scam in the history of numismatics in my humble opinion. They offer to guarantee the grade of a coin only to water down the standards later. The guarantees have been in place since 1986 (PCGS) and 1987 (NGC), and both David Hall (PCGS) and Mark Salzberg (1987) have admitted that the standards have changed at least one time since inception. It is not to the benefit of collectors. If JA really cared about combating numismatic fraud, he would go after the services IMHO. The FTC even went after PCGS in 1990. Although some of it was their marketing, the FTC also accused PCGS of lying about offering consistent, objective grading standards. The case resulted in a consent decree.
The relevant question is whether or not a coin is solid for the grade, undergraded, or overgraded. ANACS has coins in all three categories, as do PCGS and NGC, so there is really no quantifiable reason why CAC shouldn’t look at ANACS coins. Properly-graded coins in ANACS holders sell for a discount because of misinformation spread by people like you and the politics of PCGS, NGC, and CAC. That’s the only common denominator here.
Say an ANACS AU-50 sells for PCGS XF-45 money. Then it is cracked out and graded AU-55 at PCGS. Same coin, the only thing that changed was the holder. Was the discount justified? Absolutely not since there was nothing wrong with the coin. Had it had a CAC sticker, then it would have sold for at least AU-50 money. Or, better yet, if a knowledgeable collector examined the coin and found it to be at least the grade assigned, he would have paid at least AU-50 money for it.
Guess what, when people look at the COIN beyond the holder, properly-graded ANACS-graded coins are not sold at unjustified discounts. I’ve sold ANACS-graded coins at prices similar to PCGS-graded coins. The common denominator? The buyers examined the coins and determined that that they met or exceeded the grade on the slab.
Coins selling for their actual values regardless of its holder, what a concept. It’s almost like if people were not willfully blind, we would not be having this discussion.
You just succinctly explained the motive for grade inflation, yet some posters don't believe it exists. I would bet they haven't submitted any coins in the last 5-10 years.
If Baseball's argument is followed to its logical conclusion, CAC would want to buy stickered ANACS coins at lower prices so it could cross them and flip them. The reality is that most of the old ANACS holders have already been cherry picked and JA doesn't view it as worth his time.
By world coins, moderns, add on services like TrueViews, international expansion and such exactly how they have been doing it for years now.
This is so inaccurate and misinformed it's not even funny.
Sounds more like money laundering...nonsense, nonsense, add-on nonsense, international nonsense and such. I hope you’re not their lawyer. I’ve seen Italian gentlemen imprisoned for less.
Yes, but the supply of "low hanging fruit" is much lower. Those fruits are coins that are easy to authenticate, easy to attribute as the the variety, if it's needed, and easy for generalist dealers to sell.
Whether is true or not, the TPGs perceive that they are in the mature phase of their product life cycles. Their easy alternatives are to push gimmicks in the modern coin series ("first strike," special labels edt.) or encourage crack-outs and re-grades with the older stuff. In order to get the latter, they have to water down the grading standards to encourage or force owners of those coins to have them re-graded.
Getting into the variety attribution business involves hiring specialist experts, and there are not a lot of them. Historically PCGS has not been good in the coin attribution business. I've seen them blow "Red Book" varieties, which rather inexcusable. NGC has been better at it, but their generally loser grading standards have sometimes hindered those efforts.
That they will. But at what price ? Have you ever seen actual prices that they offer for the coins bearing their stickers ? I have. And most of those I have seen are but a tiny fraction of what the coin typically sells for. I've seen some as low as 30%. And to be fair, I did see one that was 110%.
Given what I just said, is it ?
To me it's a lot like the TPGs and their grade guarantee. Yeah they have one, and they do stand behind it. BUT, and it's a big but, they are the ones who determine what the value of that coin is. And if they determine the value is only 30% of what you paid for it - then that's all ya get.
It never ends!
What are you babbling about? Grading modern coins and charging for pictures is nonsense and money laundering? Opening offices over seas is nonsense? You really need to go back to school is you honestly believe the jibberish you just typed
Agree. That’s an awful dog. Why it graded and stickered is beyond me. They all blow some though
Actually, it's Collectors Universe that has been doing it for years now, but we'll keep the focus on just coins for now. PCGS Adding services like TrueViews and international expansions bought them some time in those markets, but those are different branches. About the only latest trend I've noticed that PCGS US coin grading has come up with is the whole new sticker trend with "first strike" and "signature" and so forth and so on. This in theory could get some collectors to regrade, but it's probably not helping much. Even with those added branches, that doesn't mean there's always going to be more and more coins to grade at the rate they grade them.
They're all apart of PCGS which is apart of CU. It's all one in the same.
You can't resubmit something to get first strike added. They don't need to force resubmissions, people like to keep pushing that theory but it is in fact nothing more than an internet rumor that people pushed and yelled about for long enough that now some people believe it.
Yes it does. Modern coins come out every year and the world market they have just touched the tip of the iceberg for grading with the popularity increasing and in the long run slabbing will win out in those markets as well. There is also no shortage of US coins left, were probably about a 100 years away from there being an actual shortage of classic coins to grade and even then moderns will still be plentiful. There are still plenty of people cracking coins out, plenty of old collections that have never been submitted yet, and that doesn't even get into all the crossovers.
Adding things like TrueViews (which you can get without having your coin regraded) are just ways to maximize revenue and incentives to use them, not moves necessary for survival. Video will probably come at some point too. Also with TrueViews only being $5 extra with the gold shield service the profit on those is minimal
PCGS and NGC are both here for the long haul and will be around long after any of us are
That's the type of coin I would happily wholesale to JA or his sycophants for Greysheet bid.
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