Featured An example of "grade-flation" lowering specific grade market values

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by johnmilton, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    There really is nothing nefarious about folks in the industry serving as outside board members of corporations. It happens all the time as they know the business.
     
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  3. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    But you have to remember it is not a hobby to them, it is business...BIG business. They seek ways to maximize profits for the shareholders as is required of the board of directors.
     
  4. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    So now you are attacking me for your lack of information and emotion on this thread. My recap is @C-B-D made an assertion. YOU stated "this is the kind of nonsense that hurts people". You attacked HIS post with no proof given, and then when I ask you to please provide said proof if you have it, you come and attack my post as "emotional".

    I was not aware that CAC and PCGS actively published names of investors and those who participate on its various business groups. If it is, please direct me to the sites and I will cross reference them for you and prove or disprove your assertion that what C-B-D said was "nonsense". Based upon what you said about his post, I simply assumed you are in a position to guarantee what he said was not true. Am I to take it you aren't, and maybe what you posted was "emotional" and not supported by facts that you know?
     
  5. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Yes, cross membership of Board involvement happens quite a bit. However, it is reviewed by the SEC if the net affect of said cross membership could have negative consequences to consumers. If two firms thought to be independent of each other, (like one judging quality of work of the other), one can easily see possibility for fraud or ulterior motives. I would say ANY competitive interaction between CAC and any major grading firms would be highly suspect if it exists. How could collectors trust either party if they were secretly collaborating together when CAC is supposed to be policing the other? It would be like criminals being able to hire District Attorneys to provide legal advice for them.

    Btw, I am NOT saying this happens, but one member has asserted it here, and another has belittled that assertion without telling us he has inside knowledge proving it to not be true.
     
  6. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    PCGS is part of Collectors Universe which is a publicly traded company. This is literally grade school 101 stuff for people that actually want to do research and not just believe whatever someone posts.........
     
  7. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    And the bickering begins continues...
     
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  8. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    After you have been a collector for a while, you will get the lay of the land when it comes to modern coins. Today the U.S. Mint System is issuing so many products that it is hard and very expensive to keep up with them. Many of these products are "collector duds" and never take off. Others are popular for a while and then fade as time and the next cycle of new stuff comes to the market.

    I don't know if you have looked at a price catalog, but Proof sets that over 50 years sell for very modest prices. In many instances they sell for amounts that are at or below their issue prices, and that is nominal terms only. if you figure in the effects of inflation, they are WAY BELOW their issue prices.

    Why is that? The reason is that there is a core of collectors, like me, who buy one a year. Once those collectors have their set, they don't want any more, unless they are buying them for grandkids or something like that. The only new demand comes from new collectors, and we have been short on those, at least for Proof sets, over the years.

    As for the "W" quarters, they will get a space in albums and will be in demand to fill that spot. Some promoters will push the fact that the mint is "low" and say that they coins should be worth more and more in the future.

    "Low mintage" is a relaitive term. If you look at older coins from the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries, the "W" quarter mintage is not that small. Add to that the fact that a lot of "W" quarters will be saved, and you start to see that they are not rare or scarce at all.
     
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  9. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Um, I know about Collectors Universe. I used to be a shareholder. Thanks for the condescension, though, always helpful to conduct a civilized conversation.

    MY QUESTION, that you either do not understand or am intentionally ignoring, is do any CAC owners or employees have other attachments with a firm they are supposedly policing. THAT cannot be gleaned from only Collector Universe's 10k.
     
    EyeAppealingCoins likes this.
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Here's the thing Chris that it seems folks just don't realize, none of that is even necessary. Ya see, the only thing that's required for CAC to support PCGS and NGC both and help perpetuate what is and has been going on for years is for CAC to sticker their coins - coins that are grossly over-graded. That, all by itself, does the job quite nicely.

    And for those that wish to see evidence, the proof of this - the coins themselves, coupled with the stickers on the slabs, are the evidence for anyone with eyes and the knowledge to grade them. And it's evidence that simply cannot be denied.

    Unless of course one chooses to simply close their eyes and just ignore it. Sadly there are those who do just that.

    Now plastic buyers, they can't see it to begin with because they don't have the knowledge, they don't have the ability to grade coins. And since plastic buyers make up the lion's share of the market the self-perpetuating actions of the companies just rolls on and on and on. And this is all aided by the coin dealers who are forced to either play the game or go out of business. How are they forced ? Simple, the TPGs are the only game in town, you either buy and sell their coins or you don't buy and sell. And that of course is just another self-perpetuating aspect of the game.
     
  11. CasualAg$

    CasualAg$ Corvid Minions Collecting

    Excellent thread, even with bb21’s distractions.

    I have confined my collecting to things that interest me.
    • Indian Head cents - prices sliding so will only buy bargains at present and only if ANA guidelines compliant.
    • New Jefferson proof nickels - no significant monetary outlay required.
    • Roosevelt dimes - prices diving as silver rises, bargains available. No significant monetary outlay required.
    • Currency with pictures of volcanoes - lots of fun, some interesting research required, - no significant monetary outlay required.
    All items raw. Not only has this hobby welcomed “middle men” it has helped them proliferate. This type of market strategy leads to Target and Walmart, not to Macy’s. Keep your money and wait until the coins are selling next to Beanies. Buy what you enjoy, invest in what matters.

    And...what Doug said, in spades.
     
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  12. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    Fact: CAC is not a publicly traded company.
     
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  13. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death!

    My so-called accusation was merely an identified conflict of interests. I have no evidence of wrongdoing, but the opportunity for wrongdoing exists because the folks who have a finger in CAC and PCGS also have their finger in the coin market. Same goes for greysheet. There are conflicts if interest, even if they've never been taken advantage of. That is not debatable. I'm sure they're good and honorable folks. But for my peace of mind, and for the strengthening of public confidence, I wish the conflict of interest would go away. Simple as that. No offense intended.
     
  14. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    Sometimes just the mere appearance of a conflict of interest is enough to shake public confidence in certain markets and so should be avoided if at all possible.
     
  15. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 64 years

    Now if CAC would look at and evaluate ANACS, ICG, SEGS, ... But from what I understand, isn't there a direct connection between CAC and the big two?
     
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  16. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    "Since 1978, John Albanese has been at the forefront of many of the coin industry's greatest innovations. He was a founding member of the Professional Coin Grading Service in 1986, founder of Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) in 1987 [...] In 2007, Albanese formed the Certified Acceptance Corp. (CAC) and has rendered opinions on hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of rare coins."

    https://www.pcgs.com/news/two-key-numismatists-from-past-and-present-added-coin-dealer-hof
     
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  17. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 64 years

    Does he still have vested interests in both PCGS and NGC? From someone on the outside, one could argue that something like CAC should be an integral part of both NGC and PCGS. It would be like a company making a product and then tell the buyer to pay extra for quality control.
     
  18. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    He's listed as a PCGS Authorized Dealer.

    https://www.pcgs.com/dealers/Detail.aspx?d=1546

    He isn't working at NGC or PCGS. Whether or not he still has any investment in either, I can't tell for sure. He isn't directly listed as owning any Collectors Universe shares. And NGC is privately owned (so the info isn't public).
    http://investors.collectors.com/stock-information/ownership-profile
     
  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Go look up who Scott Travers says is part of the NGC ownership group in his book.

    There's not really any point too. The overwhelming majority of valuable coins are in PCGS or NGC holders which is what CAC wants, they never wanted to be stickering $100 dollar coins but the market decided to start sending those there too. The lower tier TPG coins sell at too much of a discount particularly on high value coins for them to consider stickering them. You can't say here's our PCGS price and now here's our ANACS price, the market can and does do that but CAC doing that to it's own stickers which they would have too would just be undermining themselves. Collectors at those levels overwhelmingly don't want lower tier slabs, no reason for CAC to try and force it

    By the way JA is also the same guy who runs/ran a nonprofit that helps collectors that were scammed
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
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  20. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    That’s irrelevant. I’ve seen 5-digit coins in ANACS slabs. They sold for five digits as well because of what they were. Is that not valuable enough to be graced by JA? Your fallacious logic is seriously flawed. It’s dealer/TPG politics, plain and simple.

    Why not? Greysheet has NGC and PCGS prices.

    You could have the same coin in the same grade with the only difference being the holder, and the supposed lower-tier holder will sell for piddly-pip compared to the upper-tier holder. That is an indicator that there is something seriously wrong with the market.
     
  21. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    So go on tell us more about how it's irrelevant because their prices are the same.
     
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